Episode 25

Craig: When your parents are larger than life

Welcome!

In this episode we talk to Craig about his Midwestern upbringing with his "mountain" of a Dad and "strongest person ever" Mom to learn more about how they are navigating this current chapter of health issues and aging.

We talk about balancing responsiblities with a sibling, dealing with incontinence, and what boundaries are in place.

Thanks Craig for such a great episode!

Caveats:

  • This is a judgement free zone
  • There are no "shoulds" allowed, we live in curiosity
  • Take what works well for you, leave the rest!
  • This podcast is for informational purposes only; it is not intended as formal legal, financial or medical advice

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Rebecca


Disclaimer: The information presented on this podcast is solely for information purposes. We do not provide medical, legal, financial, or other professional advice through this podcast and we are not responsible for any errors or omissions. It is your responsibility to seek advice from a licensed professional. Any actions you take are done at your own risk.

Transcript
Speaker:

. Rebecca: Hello, everyone.

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Welcome back to another episode of

Real Conversations About Aging Parents.

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I am so happy to introduce a dear

friend and colleague of mine, Craig.

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Hey, Craig.

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Welcome.

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Hey,

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Craig: great to be here.

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Thanks for having me.

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Rebecca: So when I started about

thinking, uh, to do this podcast, I

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wanted to think of people that are in

my life that were influencing some of my

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interest in the topic of aging parents.

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And, and you were one of the

first names that popped in my head

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because I've known you long enough.

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Thank And I've kind of heard a lot of

what your parents have gone through

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and, um, the amount of support that,

um, they've needed over the years.

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And I've always seen you manage

that with grace and, and kind

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of move through these things.

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So I was terribly interested

in getting your story.

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But before we get to that, can

you just introduce yourself?

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Tell people where you're from, what

you like to do, that kind of thing.

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Craig: Sure.

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Well, hi, I'm Craig Kaya.

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Um, I, uh, well, the best, first

of all, the best, uh, job I have

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is being the, the husband for 33

years to my amazing wife, Lisa.

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And we've got two great kids, Connor,

who's 20, soon to be 26, and Kendall 23.

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Uh, I'm an occupational

therapist by training.

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I'm a Air Force veteran.

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I work at the V.

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A.

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And I'm a program manager

on a brain injury unit that

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treats veterans in active duty.

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I'm I'm an extrovert.

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I'm a people person.

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I thrive on engagement.

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And so I love being a part of.

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things where people get to connect

and, uh, you know, we get to be

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authentic and hear each other's story.

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Uh, on the team that I program manage

over, uh, I'm off often the I'm one of

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the few males in the room and I'm usually

the one that will become tearful and

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emotional when I see patients transform.

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We'll get these guys in and

we've had significant injury.

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And so I love to See that come together.

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I love to see, I love as a program

manager, I love to empower people

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and help them be their best

self and enjoy what they do.

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And I'm, uh, soon to be 59 years old.

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So, uh, I'm at a point in my

life where I really enjoy.

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Uh, what I, what I'm doing and

where I'm at and getting able to

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being able to make a difference.

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Uh, I'm a, a very strong Christian.

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My faith's very important to me.

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And so I feel like God's kind

of placed me uniquely in a

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position, a helping position.

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I have a servant's heart.

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And so, uh, getting that opportunity

to help others and, uh, especially

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as a veteran helping, uh, the VA with

active duty and veterans is the, the

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best work of my now 30 year OT career.

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So, um, Just, just really blessed in my

life with my wife, kids, and the work

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that I get to do and being in good health.

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Rebecca: Well, thank you.

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That's a, I didn't realize you

were so close to retirement age.

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We'll have to talk about that later.

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Yeah, we don't, we don't

need you to retire.

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Um, so for people that don't know what

an occupational therapist does, I know

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you mentioned that in your daughters

and OT school, uh, could you just give

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a quick thumbnail sketch about sort

of the skillset of an occupational

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Craig: therapist?

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Oh yeah, gosh.

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Well, it's funny when people become

occupational therapists, if you talk

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to them about their story and how they

became an OT, maybe it's different now,

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like in my daughter's case, she grew

up with an OT dad, but, um, When I went

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to school way back in the mid, early

nineties, nobody really knew what OT was.

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You usually were going to

become a physical therapist.

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And if you were either, uh, you had

too many skeletons in your academic

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closet, or you just, you know, you

just didn't know anything about

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OT, you kind of discovered it.

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You would look across the room and

see these people that were over in the

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corner, helping somebody functionally

to do something, cook or to get dressed

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or shower, bathe, learn how to dress

themselves, uh, navigate, uh, you

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know, community settings, budget, home

management, all the functional life tasks.

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Um, you know, we have an

injury, you know, I get O.

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T.

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Is always are frustrated, for example,

that If, if you have a total hip or total

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knee replacement, as long as you can

walk 150 feet out the door and, uh, do

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so with an assistive device, they think

you're ready to go home while OTs think

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that's really where the rehab begins then.

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And so we, we like to, to connect

and work on function and help people

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become functionally independent, you

know, after whether it be a stroke or

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an orthopedic issue or a brain injury

in the case of the program I work on.

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And so OTs.

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use their ability to assess function,

break down activities into small

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component parts, and then work on

those splinter skills, teach adaptive

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techniques, use assistive technology,

things to help people become more

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functionally independent and We get

to really connect with patients.

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I think O.

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T.

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People are, they're the

people, person, people.

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They, uh, they're touchy feely.

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Uh, at least most of my, I

mean, you go into a room of O.

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T.

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S.

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You know, immediately that

you're amongst friends.

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If somebody is talking about, you

know, their poop and going to the

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bathroom or just real personal.

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My wife is a social worker gets really

embarrassed by it because we so freely

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talk about bodily functions and of things.

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So it's a great career.

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Uh, if you love helping people

and working closely with them and

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one of the most important times of

their life to get their independence

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back, you found a good job as an O.

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T.

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Well,

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Rebecca: you've perfectly set the

backdrop for my next question, which is

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for you to tell me about your parents.

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And I want to trace back to a time

where you first started to think

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they might need some extra help.

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Like what did What did you know back then?

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And then what has that journey

been for you with your parents?

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Craig: Oh, wow.

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Yeah.

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Well, I'm forgive if I become emotional

about this, it's been a really, uh,

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tough year, a good year, but a hard year.

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But, um, my parents, they've

been married for 60 years.

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My dad and mom, uh, just turned 83 and 82.

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And, uh, they live up

in Marble Falls, Texas.

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And, uh.

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incredible people.

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Uh, th been really active people are

workout people, but m in the yard,

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you know, wo play golf, just were real

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enjoyed, you know, they e and independence

for a lo of the things that always part

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of my dad's journey to his retirement

physica Auto worker at General Motors.

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He, um, he uh, was diagnosed with stage

four colon cancer and, uh, he was a

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person who worked on a forklift uh, truck.

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And so he was having discomfort

and thought that it was just

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'cause he sat all the time.

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And so he had a very difficult,

uh, I guess treatment and recovery.

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He had to have surgery.

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Went through a year of chemo and uh, and

radiation that just about killed my dad.

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He just, My big strong dad, uh, who

people refer to him as the animal he

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was, my dad is just a mountainous man

or was then and, um, to watch, uh,

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that happened to him, I think he lost

about 60 pounds over the course of

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a year going through this treatment.

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And so he survived that, but,

um, and praise God for it.

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But he, um, He went through the next

20 plus years, really struggling

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with the results of, uh, he had to

have part of his lower, lower colon,

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uh, taken out, lots of radiation.

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And so it really affected his

independence and his quality of life.

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Lots of, uh, you know, issues for him,

uh, in terms of managing himself and,

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uh, And so he, I just have such respect

for my dad because he was so stoic.

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Uh, you would go play golf with

my dad and he had reached a point

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where he, uh, had to wear an adult.

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He wore essentially an

adult diaper for 20 years.

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And, and I don't think I ever even knew

my dad struggled with anything until

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about three years ago, two years ago.

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Oh, really?

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Just, just that person.

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He would never, you know, he has since

come to share and my, my mother, who's

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an amazing caregiver, uh, would say

that my dad would probably be having

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to go clean himself up six to eight

times a day sometimes just because

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he'd have so many accidents and

he just had no ability to control.

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But, um, so it was hard watching

him go through that journey.

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It created a host of other medical issues.

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Uh, yeah.

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He, uh, had multiple times where he,

um, he would, uh, develop an infection,

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he'd get a UTI and, uh, he'd, uh,

had issues where, uh, obstructions

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and, you know, things that just

created lots of health issues and

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problems that became very serious.

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Um, my mom, uh, just an

incredible, uh, loving, you know,

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caregiver, just always there.

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Uh, you know, when I look at the way

two people, you know, married through

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the course of their life and, you know,

through ups and downs and twists and

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turns, uh, my mom was always there and has

always been there to take care of my dad.

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But yeah, this past year

was a really difficult year.

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My dad had atrial fib.

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He.

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had issues that got so bad with

his lower colon area that he

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finally had to have a colostomy

procedure done and a bag placement.

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And, and so going up to watch,

you know, my dad go through

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that and make that adjustment.

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And, uh, you know what

that did, uh, on his self.

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His self worth is value.

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You know, his body image, you know, that

was something he never wanted to do.

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And, and, uh, he and my mom went through

that journey together and, uh, you

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know, learning how to manage the bag

and do all the things that he had to do.

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And as I say, he had overcome

atrial fib and had to have surgery.

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really just a few months for that and

then led up to the colostomy procedure.

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And so lots of medical

issues in this year.

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And, um, so these people, my parents who

had been really independent and really

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didn't need a lot from me other than

just an occasional help out and go up

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to check on them, um, started to have

some fairly serious medical issues.

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And, um, it was just hard to watch that.

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My big, strong dad, you know, not able

to get himself up out from the floor or

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And, You know, being in the hospital and

seeing, you know, the toll this had taken.

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And, and my mom is, um, she's a

Wisconsin, you know, there I'm, we're from

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Wisconsin originally, and, uh, she's a.

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From a farming family, the

toughest woman I've probably known

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in my entire life is my mother.

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And so she just presses on.

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I know she has her own health issues

that she almost never speaks about, but

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I've watched her decline this year, too.

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And so it's just hard to see.

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When your folks are used to being

very independent, able to take care of

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themselves, play golf three days a week,

and do all the things, and then suddenly

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they can't, and they're almost imprisoned

in their house, uh, because of health

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issues, and, and of course it doesn't

help that it's 105 most of the summer

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this summer, and so it's the challenge

of all that, but uh, So I've tried to

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be there and support them in my family.

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I have a brother, Steve, who's amazing.

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He's a very successful attorney up in

Wisconsin, and he is very involved.

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But of course, he's in Wisconsin.

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So I'm kind of the one that's

usually the first line of defense.

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And then if it gets bad, Steve comes down.

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But you know, my folks know always that

their two sons will take care of them.

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I know that's a comfort to them.

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There's nothing that we

wouldn't do for them.

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And so we try to manage them that way

and figure out how we can best help them.

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And thankfully, they're

still pretty independent.

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Rebecca: And you answered

one of my questions.

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So it's basically you

and your brother, right?

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There's no other siblings,

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Craig: no other siblings,

just the two of us.

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Um, my mom and dad have a strong

neighborhood network of people that

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help them with different things,

probably way beyond what I even know.

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But family wise, it's

just my brother and I.

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My mom comes from a huge family, though,

as I say, a farming family, right?

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Um, and so there are hundreds of relatives

and cousins up in Wisconsin who would

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drop it of a hat, come down and help take

care and do things for my mom and dad,

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but, um, they haven't needed that level

of care, but, uh, it, it is a challenge.

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You know, it's not like Marble Falls

is 10 minutes away from me even.

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So, um, lots of times it's, you

know, making trips up there going,

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I'm going to go up there this

weekend and check on my daddy.

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He was doing great.

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He's back playing golf and doing

some things, but then my mom told

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me he fell in the garage, so just

a fact, and he fell on the car.

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Didn't break a hip or anything.

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Thank God.

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But, um, just.

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Just the fact that you worry about a fall.

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I mean, my, my dad would have never

fallen or if he'd fallen, he would

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have got up and laughed about it

where, you know, my mom, he didn't go

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to the doctor, but I think it was a

pretty serious fall on the concrete.

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So, yeah.

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Oh,

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Rebecca: sorry.

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Go

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Craig: ahead.

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No, go ahead.

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Well, I was going to say, and then

simultaneously, the other side of that

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is, you know, My wife, Marnie's , mom is

99 and still living and has significant

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health issues and she's in Austin.

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So in our family we have this,

we're both trying to take care of,

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you know, aging parents who are at

different ages of the life spectrum.

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And have very different issues.

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And so it's, it's a real challenge

because it, you know, in Martin's case,

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she has two brothers, one that lives

in Austin, but one that's a pilot and

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lives out in Raleigh, North Carolina.

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And so they're trying to coordinate

her care while I take care of my folks.

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Rebecca: Well, thank

you for laying that out.

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And a lot of what I'd like to do in

the podcast is take the story that you

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just gave us this great framework and

then zoom into different areas for the.

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The audience to ask some questions

and I'll, I'll ask on their behalf.

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One of the things I always wonder about

when there's two siblings involved

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and one has much closer proximity

than the other, there usually goes

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a couple of different ways, right?

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Either it's very synergistic.

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Like it sounds like what you described

with your brother, you know, I'm, I'm

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the first line, he's the second line,

but we're always in contact and we

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always know we'll help, but then there

can also set up sort of this, like.

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undercurrent of resentment.

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Like I am the one that's the closest

and proximity trumps almost everything.

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Male, female, uh, medical background.

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Like you could have the best

female daughter OT up in

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Massachusetts and that won't matter.

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It's the child that's closest

to the action, um, that can be

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called in the event of a fall,

just like you're talking about.

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And so how do you and

your brother navigate?

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Um, what I, what someone would

call, like, can it, can it easily

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be an uneven sharing of, uh, a

task or a taking care of parents?

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Craig: No, that's a great question.

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Um, well, what comes to mind when

I think about it is just the, the

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relationship and the foundation that

was already there between my brother

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and I, I mean, uh, we're very close.

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Uh, there's nothing I wouldn't

do for him and he, me.

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And so.

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I think having that foundation

and I think my mom and dad always.

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You know, laid the foundation

that that family came first and

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that we take care of each other.

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And so family is super important to me.

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I mean, I won't say it can't be a burden.

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Obviously, if you're if you're missing

work and going up and things are

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constantly happening at some point,

it just gets really hard to do.

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But thankfully, we've not

endured that kind of need.

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And if we did, we'd work through

it, you know, we'd get paid

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help or do what we have to do.

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But Steve and I work through that.

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We, um, I know that he would

do anything that he could.

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And if I said, Hey, I need you down here.

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He he'd do that.

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He has a, he's a very successful,

very busy, uh, personal injury

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attorney up in Wisconsin.

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And so he's got a busy trial schedule.

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I just try to know that

and know it's not personal.

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It's not that he's not

helping because he's.

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Doesn't want to.

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It's just he's really busy and if I

really needed him, I know he'd be here.

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. Um, and it's not a burden to

take care of my mom and dad.

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They, they've done so much for

our family and my mom and dad

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are really transplanted Texans.

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I mean, they moved their entire

life to come to be close to our

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kids who were their only grandkids.

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And so they left family left

connection in Wisconsin to come down.

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you know, when the kids w you know, it

just seems l that now if things are re

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were always here when the and help take

them to soc practice, come and watch

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and I could have a date n They were

literally, and I'm so thankful they were

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part of the kid's journey growing up.

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But now in this season where

the kids are older, they're gone

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on, they're doing their thing.

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It's, it's, I know it's gotta be hard for

my mom and dad because they're now up in

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Marble Falls and the kids don't come and

they see us less and, or they see the

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kids but just, you know, at certain times.

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And so we, we make it work and we

take care of each other because

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that's what strong families do.

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Rebecca: So I'm going to ask you about

that because there's a lot of, you

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have to learn that somewhere, right?

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So there's cultural or religious or even

just basic, the down to the family values

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or, um, traditions that are passed along.

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And so how did you come to know how adult

children interact with their parents?

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Like, did you see your parents

help with your grandparents?

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Did you see like what, what

got that in your brain?

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That's not necessarily a default.

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belief, right?

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For everybody born in the earth.

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And so where did, where

do you trace that back to?

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Craig: Uh, I clearly saw that played out,

um, on my mom's family in particular.

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My, my dad has only a sister,

a younger sister and my dad

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lost his dad when he was 18.

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His dad passed of a heart attack at 47.

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I believe And so, um, I saw it more

played out on my mom's side who came

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from this large family of seven.

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And, um, there, my mom's

mom had Alzheimer's disease.

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And so I watched, uh, as all

of the kids in my mom's family

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took turns taking care of.

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Her, you know, having her, you know,

this is way before, you know, Alzheimer,

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you know, you know, centers, you

know, you know, sending someone to

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a nursing home that has a dementia

unit or those things didn't exist in

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the 70s at this point when, and so

I watched them take care of her and.

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do so lovingly and, uh, uh, never felt

like it was a burden and I see that now.

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I mean, my mom's family is just this

incredible support network of people

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when there's a marriage, a funeral, uh,

something to celebrate hundreds of people.

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I mean, it's just incredible

how that that example was handed

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down and how it still plays out.

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And so it does for me.

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I mean, Um, I, and I hope and pray

I've laid that foundation for our, our

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two kids, but I clearly saw it and I

saw how important it was and, um, and

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it just never, it just seemed like it

was the automatic thing and it really

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has never been an option for me to

not be there for my mom and my dad.

356

:

It just is so ingrained in me

and, and I, I guess I just lay

357

:

it out to what I saw growing up.

358

:

Rebecca: What are, what are your expect

expectations of your own Children?

359

:

Have you thought about that?

360

:

Um,

361

:

Craig: probably not, probably

not as detailed as I should.

362

:

Um, I'd like to think that

they would do the same.

363

:

Um, I do think it seems different now.

364

:

Um, I don't know if it's just the

way our society is and culture

365

:

and things seem different.

366

:

But I have two kids that are

very caring, very loving.

367

:

Um.

368

:

I know that they would be there for us.

369

:

Uh, if asked, um, we've tried to take

steps that maybe my mom and dad weren't

370

:

able to financially or just didn't

know about to not put them in positions

371

:

where maybe they have to be is involved.

372

:

Um, but I do believe that

they would be there for us.

373

:

And, um, They've seen that same example.

374

:

Uh, they've, they, it's funny.

375

:

You always, uh, hope that your kids will

see the things you've done for them.

376

:

I think I might've shared this with

you that, uh, we watched videos one

377

:

night of when the kids were little and

I was taping them and, uh, I remember

378

:

our son stopped the tape and he

looked at Marnie and I, and he's like.

379

:

God, you guys are amazing.

380

:

How did you put up with, I mean, the

constant barrage of questions and just not

381

:

being exhausted, always, you know, doing.

382

:

And so they, they've seen that, and

I think they have that example and

383

:

I believe it'll, you know, continue.

384

:

Rebecca: I wanted to touch base on, you

mentioned sort of the administrative

385

:

setup of How you navigate that.

386

:

Um, can you comment on to the extent

that you know, uh, for people in

387

:

their eighties, the extent to which

they have like a living will, uh,

388

:

medical power of attorney, like

how did, did they go about set?

389

:

Is it set up?

390

:

And then if it is, what

was that conversation?

391

:

Like,

392

:

Craig: yeah, my mom is really good.

393

:

My mom, Was the original superwoman.

394

:

She, um, she progressed from

a bank teller to a bank vice

395

:

president and was stay at home.

396

:

Mom managed two kids, you know,

at a time when she got virtually

397

:

a little help from her family.

398

:

And so my mom's always been a hard charger

and so, She's planned for all those kind

399

:

of things right down to she and my dad

have, uh, it's, it always seems kind of

400

:

dark to me, but they have tombstones with

their names on their gravestones waiting

401

:

to put the dates in when they pass.

402

:

Where are these tombstones

403

:

Rebecca: located?

404

:

Craig: Well, I grew up, uh, I was

born in Prairie to Sheen, Wisconsin.

405

:

And so they're going to be buried,

I think, in a small, in the farming

406

:

community of Wazika, where my mom grew up.

407

:

And so all of my mom's family or

a good portion of them have burial

408

:

plots in this small cemetery.

409

:

And most of them have done the same

things that my mom and dad have done.

410

:

Don't want to be a burden on their kids.

411

:

So they got burial plots, got the

gravestones and they're literally.

412

:

is a marker there with Todd

and Diane's name on it.

413

:

And it's just way, which

I've seen pictures of it and

414

:

it kind of freaks me out.

415

:

But so my mom's very prepared.

416

:

She has everything written out

right down to where the keys for

417

:

the safety deposit boxes are.

418

:

So if something happened to my

mom and dad, She always is like

419

:

this is where you would go.

420

:

These are the people you

would talk to all of it.

421

:

Um, I know that they have living wills.

422

:

I know that they have done a lot of that.

423

:

And this past year where my dad's

gone through difficult health.

424

:

I think one of the things that we I

always worry about, you know, you always

425

:

wonder, well, who's going to pass first?

426

:

And my mom's always been the

superwoman, super strong.

427

:

And I've always thought, well, gosh,

my dad would probably pass first.

428

:

But, you know, I think part

of it is she, you never know.

429

:

I mean, that's, that's

in God's hands, right?

430

:

So I think they want to have

everything ready for the other.

431

:

And then there's always been lots

of discussions about, well, if

432

:

one of them passed for the other,

which, which will likely happen,

433

:

will they stay at that house?

434

:

And so my mom and dad have, they've

paid off everything that they can.

435

:

I mean, the house, any.

436

:

thing that would remain a burden to the

other they've tried to take care of.

437

:

And I know it's a big deal for

them that it's easy on Steve and I

438

:

to, you know, pick up the pieces.

439

:

Um, Steve being an attorney is

the, uh, uh, I forget the word.

440

:

He, he's, he's responsible.

441

:

He's the power of attorney.

442

:

Rebecca: He has literally

443

:

Craig: the power of the attorney.

444

:

Yeah.

445

:

So he, he would be the

one that orchestrate that.

446

:

But even within our family, I don't, you

know, Steve and I, I guess I'm just really

447

:

fortunate because, you know, I never

worry about that there would be infighting

448

:

between the two of us about state, a state

settlement or planning or any of that.

449

:

My mom and dad have just

really helped prepare that.

450

:

And Steve and I being who we are that

that will never be an issue for us.

451

:

So.

452

:

Rebecca: Well, I just had this vision

when you were talking of if you could

453

:

like pre buy your own tombstone and like

put it in your garage just for storage

454

:

and just kind of look at it every day.

455

:

And I don't know if that would

make it a little bit freer.

456

:

Craig: Yeah, it's it's really

when when they did that.

457

:

I mean, I've thought many times about

that because I thought, well, if

458

:

something happened to my dad, let's say.

459

:

Well, first, the first thing they

both have said is they're going

460

:

to be cremated because they don't

want us to have to transport their

461

:

body all the way to Wisconsin in a

car, which I said, well, thank you.

462

:

Um, so then I guess I'd be hopping on

a plane with an urn and my carry on,

463

:

uh, and not telling anybody what it

was or something, but I don't know.

464

:

Definitely the

465

:

Rebecca: carry on, not the check luggage.

466

:

I'm sure there are rules about this.

467

:

Craig: Yeah.

468

:

I don't, I try not to think

that far ahead, but yeah.

469

:

They've really got things ready.

470

:

Rebecca: So I'm going to ask

you a question because you

471

:

said something very similar.

472

:

I interviewed my brother.

473

:

Uh, I don't remember what, what

episode it was, but he said almost

474

:

the exact same thing you said, which

was when I asked him about telling me

475

:

about his, his journey with our dad.

476

:

Um, so my brother talked about

seeing his dad or our dad.

477

:

Um, have more functional mobility

difficulties and, uh, have how hard

478

:

that was on him to see his dad.

479

:

And I challenged him and I said,

how come when dad has a heart issue,

480

:

you drop him off at the hospital,

you call me and then you, you leave.

481

:

And, um, I mean, he, I'm sure he's going

to say he meant to go like, take care of

482

:

the dogs or the cows or something, but.

483

:

But what he really said was, I don't like

to see my dad in a hospital gown, like

484

:

that's for what he didn't say for women.

485

:

Okay.

486

:

He said, that's for you.

487

:

You're good at that.

488

:

Right.

489

:

And I was like, I don't know that I'm

any better than anybody else that's

490

:

seeing my dad in a hospital gown, but it

doesn't have the same emotional effect.

491

:

I mean, as, as much as it does

anybody, I don't want anybody

492

:

to be sick or in the hospital.

493

:

Right.

494

:

But like it was something I, what I

noticed was almost this identification

495

:

with the strength or whatever the.

496

:

You know, John Wayne nature is for some

people in the way that they interact

497

:

with their own father and this aversion

or avoidance of or having to confront,

498

:

um, the aging process and what that

looks like and that that may be a fairly

499

:

unique struggle for males in this role

that are involved and do see it up front.

500

:

And how they work through that.

501

:

Can you can you identify with that?

502

:

Or does that?

503

:

Craig: Oh, yeah.

504

:

Yeah, that's a great observation.

505

:

Um, yeah, my dad, um, to me, growing

up, uh, was always my big, strong dad.

506

:

My dad was, uh, just a mountain man.

507

:

He, uh, his father was a large man.

508

:

He, he owned a lumber yard.

509

:

And so my, my dad used to always joke

when I would be going to the gym to lift

510

:

weights or something, he would He would

say, you know, I never lifted weights.

511

:

I used to unload cement bags from boxcars

at the lumberyard and, and, and so he was

512

:

just this huge bigger than life figure.

513

:

I, I almost never, it's funny when I was

very young, probably about four or five.

514

:

And I've shared this with my dad.

515

:

I remember one time peeking in

the kitchen and seeing him cry.

516

:

He was, He had lost his job at the plant.

517

:

I'm sure he was really wondering how

he and my mom were going to make it.

518

:

And

519

:

so seeing him like that vulnerable

was very profound for me.

520

:

I was just so taken aback that my

dad could have emotion like that.

521

:

I was very young and I almost

never saw him emotional like that.

522

:

Um, I always tease the kids when they

were, as they were growing up that they

523

:

got sweet grandpa, cause my dad was.

524

:

He would, if my dad came looking for you,

like there was an evolution of discipline

525

:

in our house that my mom would be the

front line, but if it moved to level two

526

:

and dad got involved, oh my Lord, I can

still remember my dad coming to find me

527

:

like when I didn't come home for dinner

and the look on his face, I was terrified.

528

:

So I'm not saying it was abuse.

529

:

I'm just saying he was such a.

530

:

big, strong figure.

531

:

So that was the dad image I had.

532

:

Uh, that was the image at the plant.

533

:

He was called the animal.

534

:

He would literally work in the

tire bay and pick up four truck

535

:

tires at one time and carry them

to the line to be put on a car.

536

:

So he was just, and so my dad kind of

liked that, that he was big and strong.

537

:

And that was, I think he

relished that quality of himself.

538

:

He saw that as strength.

539

:

But as he got older and I saw him

become, uh, you know, more feeble,

540

:

uh, less, you know, not as strong,

um, especially later, you know,

541

:

when he would be in the hospital,

it was very hard for me to see that.

542

:

And I'd be, I really became.

543

:

Very aware of my dad, my dad's decline,

you know, he, even now when we play

544

:

golf together, he always worries

that he can't hit the ball as far.

545

:

And even though he does great, you

know, he, my dad's actually had two

546

:

hole in ones in the same year golfing.

547

:

he does remarkably well, but he

always worries that he's physically

548

:

declining and not able to keep up.

549

:

And so that I think as a man seeing that

and seeing my big strong dad decline,

550

:

uh, was harder than say maybe if I, he

might've been declining cognitively,

551

:

you know, much sooner than I realized.

552

:

Um, I think it's the physical is what I

really connected with because it probably

553

:

is a man that's I want to be a protector.

554

:

I want to, you know, be able

to take care of my family.

555

:

And so just seeing what that was

like being played out was hard.

556

:

Uh, so yeah, I can relate to

what your brother's saying.

557

:

I would have to be the one to go to

the hospital to see him in the gown

558

:

to see him with the NG tube and,

uh, see him walking with a walker.

559

:

Um, you know, just, you

know, my dad always has taken

560

:

very good care of himself.

561

:

So to see him You know, needing a shave

and just kind of disheveled and not

562

:

my My dad was hard and then, uh, and

then watching my mom care for him in

563

:

those moments was just like this really

tender, you know, it just, it really

564

:

showed me what a marriage relationship

is, you know, when everything else is

565

:

pulled aside, the two of you taking care

of each other all the way to the end.

566

:

Rebecca: It makes me think about, um, and

I'm glad we're talking about this cause I.

567

:

Want to be really intentional with the

podcast, not to, I mean, to have a large

568

:

diversity of viewpoints and experiences.

569

:

And, um, and so I'm glad that

you're talking about that.

570

:

And I, it makes me wonder part of the, the

journey or the challenge or, or of all of

571

:

us aging, but when we are, um, having our

parents go through that phase of life, is

572

:

that intention to keep reconnecting to.

573

:

The person that they are and that we

are part of honoring that because, uh,

574

:

I always think of people as, you know,

like a fabric, like it's everything that

575

:

they've been to us in their whole life

present in front of you at one time.

576

:

And, and that can be really

confusing because they've been the

577

:

big disciplinarian, they've been

the friend, they've been the golf

578

:

buddy, they've been all these things.

579

:

And at that moment, it's just them in

front of you and whatever iteration

580

:

of their, their physical body.

581

:

That they have that day, you know, um, and

so I, I always think, um, maybe sometimes

582

:

we can even overthink this part of it.

583

:

There's our experience of, of

physical, of seeing someone

584

:

else have a physical decline.

585

:

There's their own experience,

which is also complicated.

586

:

Uh, having like, it would be for

anybody, uh, a physical decline, but

587

:

in, in the middle of all of this, right.

588

:

How do we connect and

how do we move past that?

589

:

And you've certainly have had to do that.

590

:

Um, can you talk about some, some

lessons learned or, um, how you manage

591

:

that part of your, your mind, if

it's getting dramatic about it, like.

592

:

How do you just be present?

593

:

Craig: Well, it's so funny.

594

:

The journey really shapes, as you say,

that, you know, I love the example you

595

:

gave of the fabric, um, So the journey

that you have from birth to, to now,

596

:

you know, with these family members,

with these, these parents, uh, I've

597

:

seen them through their, their high

points, their low points, strength,

598

:

weakness, uh, marital struggle,

you know, marital bliss, all of it.

599

:

And so all of that has shaped.

600

:

the journey shaped my relationship

with them, and it's had a profound

601

:

effect, obviously, on the relationships

I have with my wife, my kids, the

602

:

way I do things the way I think.

603

:

And so, um, just being mindful of that.

604

:

I mean, the fabric example is a good

one for me, because for my for my

605

:

parents, I spoke about my dad's strength.

606

:

My mom is an incredibly

strong, resilient person.

607

:

And so even though I see um, what's

in front of me right now is enough.

608

:

It's

609

:

Uh, relevant, interesting people.

610

:

They, they've done all the heavy

lifting and they're at this late

611

:

stage of life trying to find their

own way and their own meaning.

612

:

And, uh, so seeing that and, and

now I just, I, I try to really be

613

:

there for them in any way I can

to help, you know, do the heavy

614

:

lifting on things that they can't do.

615

:

You know, everything from taking care

of the house to, you know, my mom,

616

:

uh, just lost her sister, her older

sister, who she was very close with.

617

:

She and my dad have always been

very fearful of flying, but I

618

:

knew that she wanted to go see

her sister, uh, up in Wisconsin.

619

:

So I flew with my mom up to Wisconsin

to go see her sister, Mary, for the last

620

:

time, and I'm so glad we did because she

got to see Mary who, who had dementia.

621

:

She was in a nursing home, but

on the day we got to see her.

622

:

She was having a really good day and I

have great pictures and memories of my mom

623

:

being there with her sister and all of her

siblings and getting to see her and, and

624

:

so I was able to have that journey with

my mom and enjoy that experience with her.

625

:

And, and then sadly, her sister

passed about two months after that.

626

:

So, so glad that we did that.

627

:

Um, but just, you know, walking with

my mom through that really important.

628

:

Time, you know, uh, was huge.

629

:

I wanted to do that same thing

with my dad to take him up.

630

:

He, he went to Canada with our

family, all the guys to get away on

631

:

a fishing trip a couple of years ago.

632

:

And that's when he had his

first big atrial fib bout.

633

:

And so he literally had to get

air flighted back to a place.

634

:

And then I literally drove up to

Wisconsin to bring he and my mom home.

635

:

Oh my gosh.

636

:

So he wants to go back up and go fishing.

637

:

And that's something that

I want to do for my dad.

638

:

We just couldn't make it work

because he had so much going on

639

:

with this colostomy procedure.

640

:

But next year, if he's not able to drive,

I will definitely take him up and we'll go

641

:

fishing together and have that experience.

642

:

I'm praying that he can drive and do that.

643

:

But What I see with my mom is they've

reached a point where they no longer feel

644

:

confident to do things and they want to

go do things, but they lack the confidence

645

:

to do them or the time or the ability.

646

:

I mean, they'll get spun up on medical

appointments or their dog or what.

647

:

And I'm like, mom, if

you want to go, just go.

648

:

We'll take care of all that.

649

:

They, you know, they, they,

they can't do those things.

650

:

And so that's where, you know,

I can step in and be the help

651

:

and support that they need.

652

:

And, and I'm happy to do that.

653

:

It doesn't feel like a burden.

654

:

Let me

655

:

Rebecca: ask you this, and this,

this may be an unfair question,

656

:

but everybody has limits, right, to

what they can do as far as, um, you

657

:

know, as much as they would need.

658

:

Do you have in the back of your mind hard

limits on, like, would you move up there?

659

:

Would they move down here?

660

:

Like, You know what I'm saying?

661

:

Like, has your brain gone that far?

662

:

Cause right now, and I know it sounds

like it's working for their needs right

663

:

now, but does your, especially as an OT,

does your brain wander into like, what

664

:

does this look like if dad keeps falling?

665

:

What

666

:

Craig: comes up with that?

667

:

Well, I, where I think about that a lot

is let's say my dad sadly passed away.

668

:

and my mom was there by herself.

669

:

Um, part of the reason my mom and

dad live in Marble Falls is because

670

:

they were always fearful of being

in the big city here in San Antonio.

671

:

The traffic, it was just too much

for them because we grew up in

672

:

a small community in Wisconsin.

673

:

And so, you know, Marble Falls is

kind of a safe space for my mom.

674

:

But having gone up, uh, and spend

time with my mom when my dad

675

:

was in the hospital, it was very

clear to me she doesn't see well.

676

:

I worried about her driving.

677

:

Um, I, I can see that there's been

some decline there and I think if

678

:

she was here, she would acknowledge

it even probably on some level.

679

:

And so I worry about that, about her

ability to, to be on her, on her own,

680

:

and same for my dad in different ways.

681

:

Um, And so, you know,

we've talked about that.

682

:

My mom and dad again, back to their

own planning and preparation have been

683

:

very clear about not wanting to move

in or be a burden moving in with us.

684

:

We don't really have a space that they

could do that, but that would be on

685

:

the table for me, but probably more so.

686

:

I think my mom acknowledges that there

may be a time that she or my dad would

687

:

have to go to assisted living or go to

a place where she could be cared for.

688

:

I think they've tried to do

things financially to make

689

:

that feasible and possible.

690

:

And I think for my brother and I,

that would probably be, you know,

691

:

my brother, uh, has said that many

times that, you know, that's something

692

:

we'll help take care of if we need to.

693

:

And we're blessed that we can do that.

694

:

I know not everybody has that that option.

695

:

But, um I'm sensitive to my

relationship with Marnie and

696

:

we've been married for 33 years.

697

:

Um, we love our parents, uh, and she loves

my mom and dad just like I love her mom.

698

:

But, um, I also know that my commitment

to Marnie is, is top, you know, I mean.

699

:

I wouldn't just say, Hey,

we're going to move to Marble

700

:

Falls to take care of my mom.

701

:

Yeah.

702

:

It's like we make decisions as a, as a

couple, and that would be off limits or

703

:

not be on the table for, for, for us.

704

:

Uh, we would have to have discussions

about what we would be comfortable with.

705

:

We've had such discussions, even about her

mom, about what would we allow her to move

706

:

in or would we move closer or do things?

707

:

And so.

708

:

I think those discussions keep

changing, you know, as you get closer

709

:

to it and things get more serious.

710

:

But for now, I think, you know, we've had

the discussions that we would try to get

711

:

my mom or my dad, whoever would remain to

a place that they felt comfortable with.

712

:

They probably have to

move out of the house.

713

:

Even have talked about moving

back to Wisconsin to be closer

714

:

to their extended family.

715

:

Uh, that might be an option as well.

716

:

Okay.

717

:

Wow.

718

:

But, but I think having all those

discussions, even though like when,

719

:

like when my mom brings it out or you

know, it's kind of like the mom, do

720

:

we have to talk about where things

are when you pass kind of thing

721

:

again, but having those discussions.

722

:

Makes it more real and easier to talk

about when my dad goes into the hospital

723

:

and has a serious event and we're more

prepared So I think it's worth doing

724

:

Rebecca: I sometimes I I chuckle to

myself because of all of the Taboos on

725

:

this topic and it's like if there's one

thing in life that's guaranteed Right.

726

:

It's that it ends And that's the

one thing we had the hardest time

727

:

could have planning around and

it does require some planning.

728

:

And I always think, you know,

if you don't plan, then people

729

:

make assumptions, um, absolutely.

730

:

And there's a lot of legal assumptions.

731

:

So.

732

:

Anyway, so I don't, I'm sensitive

to, I don't want to make the podcast

733

:

too morbid, but I want to, I want

to release the taboo on the topic

734

:

because that's another manifestation

of how families work together, you

735

:

know, what is this going to look like?

736

:

And that's a really hard time, right?

737

:

And you were just talking about our

mutual colleague that lost her father

738

:

and she's been very open about.

739

:

Gosh, I mean, they were,

he was so prepared and that

740

:

just helped tremendously.

741

:

Um, and so I, I, I want to reframe this

not as a scary thing to talk about,

742

:

but the, probably one of the most

important things you can do and, um,

743

:

well, anyway, I think that was, uh, I am

so happy that you, you shared all that.

744

:

I, um, I'm so appreciative of you

coming on to talk to me about this.

745

:

I know this isn't an

easy topic for you, but.

746

:

I think with your life experience

as an occupational therapist, which

747

:

your parents lucked out with that.

748

:

If you have any, if you have a kid of any

discipline, I think the best one for an

749

:

aging parent is to have an OT as a child.

750

:

Um, but anyway, so, uh, I just

appreciate you sharing that.

751

:

Uh, any parting last thoughts or

sentiments you'd like to share?

752

:

Craig: Uh, just, you know, um,

I guess, uh, thank you for the

753

:

opportunity to, to share my story.

754

:

Uh, I.

755

:

You know, I'm honored to parents who

have really k out there for their own

756

:

f that's in my voice

speaks them and you know

757

:

what, w they've been in my own

li And, uh, it's an honor and a

758

:

privilege to take care of them.

759

:

And, uh, um, I think, um, being able

to have hard conversations and, you

760

:

know, throughout the journey, uh, makes

the late stage journey a lot easier.

761

:

And, uh, um, I think they would

acknowledge they've had a wonderful life.

762

:

And, uh, I want that to be the

way they remember their life.

763

:

And so, um, just being able

to be there for them and.

764

:

And then hopefully laying the foundation

for my own family and my own kids

765

:

to see how we've taken care of them.

766

:

Hopefully it will be impactful and how

they raise their family and their kids.

767

:

So, um, thanks for giving me the

opportunity to talk about that.

768

:

And, um, thanks for what you're doing.

769

:

I think it's an incredible, uh,

I would see it as a ministry

770

:

almost as what you're doing.

771

:

So thanks for doing it.

772

:

Rebecca: That's really beautiful.

773

:

I'm going to leave you with one

tip, which somebody else gave me

774

:

and it was a guest on this podcast.

775

:

You immediately send the link to

your children once I publish it.

776

:

And then you make them listen to it,

and then you quiz them at the next

777

:

time that you'd go to the gallery.

778

:

Craig: I'll do it, because if

it's technology, they probably

779

:

immediately believe everything said.

780

:

I could try

781

:

Rebecca: to find, like,

an emoji to go with it.

782

:

I'll try to dress it

up for your kids ages.

783

:

But yeah, no, so I say that because

that's been one of the rewarding things

784

:

of the podcast, is it's shareable.

785

:

And so people come tell their story.

786

:

Their story gets out there and they've

had family members reach out and say,

787

:

I didn't realize what you went through

or didn't realize, you know, what

788

:

that, what that really looked like.

789

:

And so, um, I appreciate you sharing

and you're sharing, uh, with the

790

:

next generation, uh, at least

by the published podcast link.

791

:

So anyway, Craig, thank you so much.

792

:

I appreciate you being here.

793

:

I hope we could talk again soon.

794

:

Craig: Sounds good, Rebecca.

795

:

Looking forward to it till the next time.

796

:

All right.

797

:

Rebecca: All right.

798

:

Craig: Thank you.

799

:

Thanks.

800

:

See you.

801

:

Bye bye.

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Real conversations about aging parents

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Rebecca Tapia