Episode 21
Solo Podcast: The Joy of Death Cleaning!
Welcome!
In this solo episode I explore the Swedish tradition of "death cleaning" or "dostadning" and how it is relevant in all stages of life.
Caveats:
- This is a judgement free zone
- There are no "shoulds" allowed, we live in curiosity
- Take what works well for you, leave the rest!
- This podcast is for informational purposes only; it is not intended as formal legal, financial or medical advice
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Rebecca
Disclaimer: The information presented on this podcast is solely for information purposes. We do not provide medical, legal, financial, or other professional advice through this podcast and we are not responsible for any errors or omissions. It is your responsibility to seek advice from a licensed professional. Any actions you take are done at your own risk.
Transcript
Hi, everyone.
Speaker:Welcome back to another podcast.
Speaker:Episode of real conversations about aging parents.
Speaker:This is Rebecca Tapia.
Speaker:Your podcast hosts.
Speaker:Today I have a super fun and exciting and bright and sunny topic for you.
Speaker:And that is.
Speaker:Death cleaning.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:I know that sounds kind of funny, but I think it's very relevant.
Speaker:I find it to be a fascinating topic.
Speaker:This has been around for a very long time in the Swedish culture,
Speaker:but was popularized here in the United States, around 2017.
Speaker:When margarita Magnuson wrote a book called the gentle art
Speaker:of Swedish death cleaning.
Speaker:How to free yourself and your family from a lifetime of clutter.
Speaker:And really the, the gist of the book was to recognize that we accumulate a
Speaker:lot of things throughout our lifetime.
Speaker:And it doesn't necessarily have to be at the end of your life, but there are
Speaker:periods in life where you can sort of, well, we would say dire Reese in the
Speaker:medical field, or just get rid of things.
Speaker:And that would be keeping things that have meaning for you.
Speaker:Uh, giving things away, donating things, or transferring meaningful
Speaker:items to other people for whom they'd have meeting while you're still alive.
Speaker:So you can participate in this process that you can bring a joy to other
Speaker:people or other organizations by letting go of some of the stuff that
Speaker:we so fiercely accumulate during our life, and really it has its roots,
Speaker:um, and the Swedish culture, which is very simple and practical in many
Speaker:points, unless you've been to Ikea in.
Speaker:Which case this may be not so practical and maybe not so simple, but the
Speaker:idea here is instead of accumulating large amounts of items that upon
Speaker:your death, some person who may be grieving has to go through and process.
Speaker:The point here is to do this ahead of time in a meaningful way.
Speaker:Not because you're about to die, but because it's part of the reorganization
Speaker:of stuff, it's part of the transfer of memories, a transfer of meaningful.
Speaker:Items.
Speaker:And then also to take just from a material standpoint items that you have
Speaker:in your possession, that you're not meeting, that you're no longer needing.
Speaker:That really could be in use by somebody else.
Speaker:And you've seen different iterations of this and pop culture.
Speaker:So there's been sort of the Marie Kondo approach and at one point, um,
Speaker:David and I used to watch a TV show.
Speaker:I can't even remember the name of it now where, uh, this really ultra.
Speaker:Modern and simple interior designer would go into homes and basically rip
Speaker:everything off the walls, everything on the closets and only put back
Speaker:things that were extremely meaningful.
Speaker:And so this has been an idea, and I think it comes from just the ever that we all
Speaker:know that we accumulate too many things, and there were very consumer based culture
Speaker:and we have things like black Friday, labor day sales and Christmas, and.
Speaker:And all of these items that, uh, become a part of our lives.
Speaker:We don't have a really good process for necessarily organizing them or
Speaker:what do we do when we grow out of them?
Speaker:So we go through these different seasons in life and we have
Speaker:relics from prior seasons.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:I know this, uh, as a parent of children, young children, that, you
Speaker:know, you know what what's relevant from zero to six months, isn't relevant.
Speaker:For a five-year-old.
Speaker:And so you're constantly trying to process through large amounts of.
Speaker:Of clothing and gear and all sorts of stuff.
Speaker:But once you get into a different phase of life and you're at a point where you
Speaker:want to simplify, when we really focus on meaning instead of accumulation.
Speaker:Then you can sort of derive from that, this idea of where this came
Speaker:from, which is the, the Swedish word.
Speaker:And I don't speak Swedish, but the internet says it's pronounced duo.
Speaker:and that actually means death cleaning in Swedish.
Speaker:This is supposed to mean a period of time where you're very intentional
Speaker:about going through your items.
Speaker:And you're making various decisions to keep them.
Speaker:To give them away.
Speaker:So death cleaning is actually more than just decluttering.
Speaker:So it's not like going to the container store and reorganizing
Speaker:things in a way that's simple to use.
Speaker:This is actually more about a thoughtful approach to a different
Speaker:phase of life or what they would say.
Speaker:Even a thoughtful approach for preparing for the inevitable.
Speaker:There are several emotional and psychological aspects tied to
Speaker:decluttering and the context of mortality.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So you can think of the emotional side of becoming sentimental
Speaker:about your prior life or maybe approaching a different phase of life.
Speaker:Or maybe you look at items or objects that help meaning.
Speaker:From a long time ago.
Speaker:There's also a positive side to that.
Speaker:And there's a freeing that can come from just not having to manage so much stuff.
Speaker:And if you take things that are important to you.
Speaker:It might be important to somebody else or things that used to be useful for you
Speaker:and can become useful to somebody else.
Speaker:And you transfer those items.
Speaker:Out of your world, into their world.
Speaker:There can be some significant emotional benefit to that and not just for
Speaker:yourself, but for other people as well.
Speaker:So it's sort of the antithesis of this idea that you're hoarding lots and lots
Speaker:of various material throughout your home.
Speaker:Which is costing money to store and, you know, aging and not being in,
Speaker:falling into disuse and perhaps making other people's worlds a little bit
Speaker:easier by transferring those items out.
Speaker:And so the there's a sense of empowerment about it.
Speaker:I think in that period of life.
Speaker:Uh, where there's a higher mortality.
Speaker:There, there's a lot of things that can feel disempowering such as the
Speaker:progression of diseases or maybe a loss of mobility or a loss of independence.
Speaker:And there is something empowering about taking control of your own environment
Speaker:of the items in your environment.
Speaker:What I see though more often is actually what I would call like a forced
Speaker:death cleaning and not because, and I don't mean this in a morbid way or
Speaker:Focus specifically on actually dying.
Speaker:But this idea is when, especially in the rehab world, when you see.
Speaker:Somebody who's maybe been very active and driving and had recently
Speaker:retired and they have something catastrophic happened like a stroke.
Speaker:There's almost a forced period of that.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So you can't use most of those items anymore.
Speaker:Sometimes that person has to move.
Speaker:Into a different room in the house or into a different setting altogether.
Speaker:And that is a very disempowering feeling when your possessions.
Speaker:Are now or fall into disuse, not because you wanted them to, but
Speaker:because you can no longer use them.
Speaker:Or, uh, because you can't have control over your own environment.
Speaker:So I'm going to talk about a couple of different aspects of this.
Speaker:The first is just understanding that concept.
Speaker:As a whole.
Speaker:So this is more than just decluttering.
Speaker:This is a thoughtful approach to what is inevitable for all of us.
Speaker:And at some point before it happens not necessarily a day
Speaker:before or even the decade before.
Speaker:But at any point in life, including my point in life right now.
Speaker:And I'm 41.
Speaker:I've thought about this.
Speaker:I mean, we call it spring cleaning, but I get into these moods where I
Speaker:just go all over my house, like a mad woman and start pulling things out of
Speaker:closets and, and putting them into boxes.
Speaker:And it's almost like I have to molt if I was an insect or something.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:Let go of some former skin and get into a new skin.
Speaker:I obviously, I don't want to move every time I feel this way.
Speaker:And so part of what I know my reaction to that is, especially if we're moving
Speaker:out of an era, like at the end of summer right now, and the kids are going
Speaker:back to school, I have this need to.
Speaker:Go around and do this on my house.
Speaker:I don't have the time right now, but it's bothering me.
Speaker:If I could just get a week, I would just do it for, for a whole week straight.
Speaker:And doesn't necessarily, I don't mean like cleaning, cleaning.
Speaker:I mean, like actually.
Speaker:Organizing and processing.
Speaker:And that's almost how I feel like I help.
Speaker:Myself, move through different seasons or move through different areas of my life.
Speaker:And I can go through and get rid of the clothes that are too small for
Speaker:my kids and let those, let those go.
Speaker:And almost.
Speaker:Therapeutic or ceremonial way and celebrate, and also have some relief
Speaker:related to whatever era we're leaving.
Speaker:Um, and I liked just having it update and reflect whatever my life is at that time.
Speaker:So I get to be very uncomfortable with my environment is reflecting.
Speaker:Uh, phase that is in the past.
Speaker:Like right now we just got back from vacation.
Speaker:Oh man.
Speaker:Two weeks ago.
Speaker:And I still have not unpacked my suitcase and that bothers me every day.
Speaker:And I should do it immediately after this recording, but this recording.
Speaker:It's more important.
Speaker:I digress.
Speaker:The idea is I call this death cleaning, but the larger concept
Speaker:is it's more than decluttering.
Speaker:It's like a preparation, it's a processing.
Speaker:It's a way to move forward.
Speaker:And there are multiple emotional aspects of this.
Speaker:So you can think, obviously you could immediately think of the negative aspects
Speaker:like, oh, well I'm going to die someday.
Speaker:So I do my death cleaning and maybe that's a terrible name for it, but we
Speaker:could just use the Swedish word if we could all figure out how to say it.
Speaker:But there's the negative emotional aspect.
Speaker:What could be the sadness or the grief that comes with realizing,
Speaker:or coming to terms with your own mortality, but really there's multiple
Speaker:positive emotional benefits to this.
Speaker:The first one is a sense of control and empowerment.
Speaker:On facing the topic of mortality.
Speaker:And so in my clinical life, we see so many people face.
Speaker:Uh, disability or morbidity and mortality, and be completely out of control and
Speaker:have no power over those processes.
Speaker:But when you have and retain the ability to change your environment,
Speaker:To curate or Colgate the things around you.
Speaker:The sense of empowerment that comes with an expended effort in an outcome.
Speaker:Usually on the same day or within the same hour.
Speaker:I can be a very positive, emotional experience.
Speaker:Now I know for those of you that are just finished your, um, spring
Speaker:cleaning and you're listening to this, you may not feel that way or winter
Speaker:cleaning or whatever you want to call it, but there is almost a cathartic.
Speaker:Emotional feeling that can come from taking items related to a past.
Speaker:Situation and processing them.
Speaker:And that can mean keeping the most important things and
Speaker:the most meaningful things.
Speaker:And passing the rest along, donating them, giving them to somebody else
Speaker:that might find meaning in them.
Speaker:So in pop culture, this, this is becomes very trendy, uh, and, and regular cycles.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Most releases most recently with Marie Kondo.
Speaker:And that approach to almost fanatical organization, but I, uh, there's even
Speaker:lots and lots of TV shows on HGTV and other other networks that really
Speaker:do focus on reorganizing processing, cleaning things, up, simplifying
Speaker:things, uh, and then on the opposite end, of the spectrum, which I have
Speaker:mixed feelings about commercializing this part of mental illness, but the
Speaker:shows that are related to hoarding.
Speaker:Um, and people feeling empowered by retaining the
Speaker:physical items in their home.
Speaker:And that's a very complex condition that outside the scope of what
Speaker:we're talking about today.
Speaker:But the idea is that when you are able to exercise the control of your
Speaker:environment, the actual objects in your environment, how much space is occupied
Speaker:around you and what's occupying it.
Speaker:Then there can be an emotional benefit to that as well.
Speaker:And you can see even a sense of relief or comfort through that process of
Speaker:letting go of unnecessary possessions.
Speaker:And, um, that's what some of the highlights of these various TV shows are.
Speaker:Once people start to let things go.
Speaker:Um, they start to feel lighter.
Speaker:They start to feel more, uh, excited and free and then they can write a
Speaker:new, um, environment for themselves.
Speaker:And I think that's really interesting.
Speaker:It's almost like to me, like environmental programming.
Speaker:Uh, another passion of mine and just understanding the impact of
Speaker:the environment on your, your, uh, physical and psychological wellbeing.
Speaker:And part of that is understanding the items and their role in your environment.
Speaker:So the idea is also, uh, detaching, sentimental value from a large
Speaker:number of physical items.
Speaker:And so I think of this, like my son gets a metal or two, every time he plays and a.
Speaker:Uh, little league sports.
Speaker:Um, engagement.
Speaker:I don't know whatever it is.
Speaker:And we started putting his little metals on attack and he's
Speaker:played enough seasons that there.
Speaker:Uh, eventually the Tech's going to break and.
Speaker:I don't particularly have a lot of interest in retaining all these metals,
Speaker:but they're very important to him and he attaches a lot of meaning to them.
Speaker:And then of course, because he and his twin sister in the same room and she
Speaker:has less metals that's becomes a point of contention for me, but either way.
Speaker:So people attach different levels of sentimental value to different physical
Speaker:items and the memories they hold.
Speaker:And those can be very important and relevant for a period of time.
Speaker:Um, but attaching too much sentimental value to too many items
Speaker:for too many different reasons.
Speaker:And you multiply that over the course of a lifetime.
Speaker:That is when I'm introducing something like this concept of where, which
Speaker:ones are the most meaningful, or if that's really meaningful.
Speaker:Was there someone else who would also get meaning that
Speaker:could now have that possession?
Speaker:Uh, and care for it.
Speaker:I think that would be important.
Speaker:Now the actual author of the book I mentioned earlier, Talks about
Speaker:creating a box of items that only have meaning for you that you don't think
Speaker:anybody else could inherit them and feel like this was really important.
Speaker:And actually having a message on the box to discard upon your death.
Speaker:And I was like, that's gotta.
Speaker:I just kind of chuckled, like just get a Sharpie out and you're
Speaker:like throw away when I die.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:But.
Speaker:Um, but yeah, the idea is, you know, maybe there are lots of items that
Speaker:are particularly important to you and that you enjoy, but you don't.
Speaker:Um, assume anybody else would, and then you have those more in a defined area
Speaker:with pre instructions on what to do with it when somebody comes upon it later.
Speaker:And I think about this, my mom, um,
Speaker:Love's antiquing and as accumulated a large number of antique furniture items.
Speaker:And by no means, do I consider her a hoarder, but there's a couple of items
Speaker:that, uh, her grandfather created.
Speaker:And I worry that I don't know what's going to happen to those or who they're going to
Speaker:go to, um, when that time comes, because I know they're very important to her.
Speaker:And how much it would mean if those items.
Speaker:Persisted in the family, but I just don't physically know where they would go.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:I haven't had the discussion.
Speaker:She's probably listening to this thinking that we'll probably need to have that
Speaker:discussion, but, but either way, Um, as far as what those possessions are,
Speaker:what their sentimental value is, that's going to be a very personal thing.
Speaker:The other part of this is to be kind to the people that come behind you.
Speaker:And it's almost like, um, one of the big things you hear about, and I have,
Speaker:uh, some friends of mine that have just gone through a very close loss.
Speaker:Is the first thing that comes to mind right after the initial
Speaker:shock is who's going to go over.
Speaker:And process that room or that house or whatever it might be.
Speaker:And, you know, that's, that's difficult in and of itself, but the idea is that
Speaker:whomever is coming and, and mourning you or, uh, processing that, or even maybe
Speaker:managing those affairs after you pass away, the last thing you want for them.
Speaker:Is necessarily.
Speaker:To be going through large.
Speaker:Uh, piles of magazines from five years ago that nobody's going to read.
Speaker:And again, you don't always have to think about those people, but the Swedish
Speaker:are very practical and very simple in this way, or they want simplicity.
Speaker:And to help prepare that environment, uh, to serve themselves
Speaker:at that point in their life.
Speaker:But then also too.
Speaker:Not overly burden.
Speaker:The people coming to process that environment later.
Speaker:Um, I think that's another, another approach that, that may or may not.
Speaker:Necessarily mean anything for you, but that's a, an idea and
Speaker:where that part comes from.
Speaker:So as far as how it's approach, there's lots of different approaches for it.
Speaker:It could be broken down just into a room by room.
Speaker:Uh, and it's sort of the, you know, you can have four different
Speaker:piles, the, the keep pile.
Speaker:So keep here it's it's useful or meaningful.
Speaker:The donate pile.
Speaker:Obviously somebody else might be able to use this and you give it away for free.
Speaker:Discard you throw it away.
Speaker:And then the other one, uh, is distribute and distribute just means I have a
Speaker:lot of these items and I intend to give them to this person, uh, and,
Speaker:and maybe distributed them before or ahead of times you can see them
Speaker:enjoy that product or make sure that it gets to them or whatever it is.
Speaker:Um, that I think that would be very interesting.
Speaker:If you go back to.
Speaker:The episode with Renee, number one, she talks about this.
Speaker:She talks about her.
Speaker:Father and stepmother creating an Excel spreadsheet with all of their important
Speaker:items, not necessarily valuable items.
Speaker:But important items that had a lot of meaning to the family.
Speaker:And then circulating the spreadsheet amongst their children, for people
Speaker:to basically sign up for things that they would have meaning for them.
Speaker:And I always thought that was such an interesting and thoughtful approach.
Speaker:Now that didn't have to come with a terminal diagnosis that
Speaker:wasn't done in a hurried way.
Speaker:This is.
Speaker:They've lived many, many, many years after this process.
Speaker:And I always find that to be.
Speaker:A very thoughtful and I think, um, Really intentional way to do it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So if you're going to have these items, you can't take them with you.
Speaker:And you're going to want somebody else to enjoy them.
Speaker:Why not at that moment, just have a list, have it simple, have it
Speaker:easy to distribute at that time.
Speaker:This is partially on my mind because, uh, earlier today, before
Speaker:recording this podcast, we went to the San Antonio museum of art and
Speaker:they have a large, uh, Egyptian.
Speaker:Hall there.
Speaker:And I was looking at a lot of the burial practices that they would
Speaker:use in Egypt and trying to send the items with people as they died.
Speaker:Uh, obviously these are more.
Speaker:Of the wealthier or more Regal, uh, distinguished people, but even within
Speaker:their sarcophagus or within their coffin.
Speaker:They would place items they would make, models of people that would be helping
Speaker:them take items into the underworld.
Speaker:And, and I think once we've moved beyond taking items to that,
Speaker:Her world once we've just decided culturally or societaly
Speaker:that we don't do that.
Speaker:Or that that's not possible, then we're working backwards from there
Speaker:and saying, well, we can't take it with us if it's not serving us at this
Speaker:time, then can it be somewhere else?
Speaker:So another thing to think about is just really focusing on cultural.
Speaker:And generational perspectives of what this means and how people do
Speaker:pass along things at any given house.
Speaker:And I don't necessarily think there should be limited to physical items.
Speaker:So another thing to think about is there are other cultural practices.
Speaker:Um, one of them is called, uh, An ethical will.
Speaker:So it's beyond the will of physical items and the ethical
Speaker:will is passing on stories.
Speaker:Uh, family stories, value systems, uh, ways of life, life
Speaker:lessons to future generations.
Speaker:And that can also be part of quote, unquote, death cleaning.
Speaker:It doesn't have to be physical items that you're putting in boxes.
Speaker:But if there's a story that you've always wanted to tell or a life lesson
Speaker:you've wanted to impart, you know, perhaps putting that into a book or
Speaker:writing or word document, or even a video or recording or something of that.
Speaker:So that, that can also survive in the future.
Speaker:That would be great.
Speaker:Now.
Speaker:I'm going to put a tip in here.
Speaker:You might have a lot of life lessons you want to share with somebody else.
Speaker:They may or may not be in the mindset of wanting to accept.
Speaker:All of your life lessons.
Speaker:So I always recommend if you're going to share life lessons with somebody to
Speaker:share them with somebody who is receptive and or asking about those life lessons.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Uh, I'm just, uh, yeah, I'll just leave it at that.
Speaker:But, um, if there is an accumulation of stories and cetera, I think this
Speaker:would be really interesting now on a future podcast I'd like to interview,
Speaker:uh, what I, one of my really good friends that does this for a living.
Speaker:So he interviews people.
Speaker:And takes their stories and processes them and high resolution video.
Speaker:And his actual company is called story keeping.
Speaker:And I have found that to be such a fascinating kind of watching his journey
Speaker:the last couple of decades into this.
Speaker:And he does these really professional, extremely high
Speaker:quality capturing of stories.
Speaker:I've always looked at that as a really interesting way.
Speaker:To preserve a family story or cultural story.
Speaker:Life lessons et cetera, for generations beyond even grandchildren.
Speaker:I mean, great grandchildren.
Speaker:Great, great grandchildren.
Speaker:You know, and I know this might sound silly, but I even think
Speaker:about this with this podcast.
Speaker:That we are in an age where things will easily outlive us.
Speaker:There are permanently out limbus they live on the internet, right?
Speaker:So there could be a day where my grandchildren or my great-grandchildren go
Speaker:back and listen to parts of the podcast, which kind of freaks me out because
Speaker:that makes me think I need to think of.
Speaker:Who could be listening to this in the future, but, but either way anyway,
Speaker:so, so don't think of it so much as death cleaning, like some like another
Speaker:thing on their to-do list, like, oh, I got to clean out the I think
Speaker:of it as how can you intentionally.
Speaker:And practically simplify your life right now.
Speaker:And is there a potential that your life is empowered?
Speaker:Simplified?
Speaker:And other people can benefit from that in some way, whether that's by them receiving
Speaker:those items or receiving those stories.
Speaker:Or maybe making an easier on them on the backend.
Speaker:If something were to happen to you, whether that's
Speaker:actually passing away or just.
Speaker:Uh, coming into a disability.
Speaker:Where you'll have to move or be in a different setting.
Speaker:That's another way that, that I tend to think about it.
Speaker:What's interesting when I'm thinking about applying this to my life, even at 41.
Speaker:Is, it can also become a filter of your future purchases.
Speaker:What's the intent of that item.
Speaker:What value can it bring to you or somebody else?
Speaker:Can it be reused?
Speaker:Is it going to be.
Speaker:Donated is it going to be, uh, passed on in some way now thinking about
Speaker:it, Dave and I don't accumulate.
Speaker:A large amount of artwork or things like that.
Speaker:We are.
Speaker:Try to focus a lot on experiences.
Speaker:And so if I was at think of even just five things, I would pass onto
Speaker:my kids other than maybe my wedding ring, which might be kind of weird.
Speaker:Um, although I have my grandmother's wedding ring, I think.
Speaker:I mean, I haven't, I'm just not sure it's actually her wedding ring.
Speaker:There's some family controversy about that, but, um,
Speaker:I guess I'm thinking out loud, it would probably be.
Speaker:My jewelry.
Speaker:That's very limited.
Speaker:Really just my wedding ring.
Speaker:Maybe my college ring.
Speaker:Um, Not my phone.
Speaker:Like all my files, all the photos are going to be up in the cloud.
Speaker:So that's pretty cool.
Speaker:Um, I think we have some objects from some travel that we had even
Speaker:before we had kids and we bought some things in Greece and Turkey.
Speaker:And some other exotic places that we were able to go.
Speaker:That we have shared, and I think that's probably going to be number two.
Speaker:If jewelry is number one, number two is going to be.
Speaker:Items accumulated in our shared experiences.
Speaker:So that would usually be through travel.
Speaker:So we have some things we've bought in Mexico and other places that
Speaker:we've been that I think the kids would remember when we bought them
Speaker:where we were, what was going on.
Speaker:I think that could be really nice.
Speaker:I would think about my clothes, but I'm not very stylish.
Speaker:And, um, I can't imagine that anybody would want to inherit my clothes.
Speaker:So there should probably be donated.
Speaker:And my shoes.
Speaker:I've never really bought expensive clothes or shoes.
Speaker:Uh, my car.
Speaker:Somebody should probably take my card.
Speaker:That's for useful.
Speaker:Um, What else?
Speaker:That's it.
Speaker:I guess.
Speaker:So if I were to truly death clean, I would pretty much get rid of
Speaker:everything, but like we have a bunch of pens and pencils that I still need.
Speaker:So I'll keep those for sure.
Speaker:But thinking about that, doesn't.
Speaker:Scare me or worry me.
Speaker:I love to feel prepared.
Speaker:I was telling somebody this the other day.
Speaker:When I plan a trip and I love planning trips, we love to travel.
Speaker:I usually plan backwards because I don't like to end the trip on some chaotic,
Speaker:crazy flight pattern that has multiple layovers and we get home and it's just.
Speaker:Like exhausting and it just pretty much puts like a sad face
Speaker:emoji at the end of the trip.
Speaker:So I love to really look at the back end of the trip.
Speaker:When do we get home?
Speaker:What is that experience like?
Speaker:Can we talk about it that evening?
Speaker:Can we, uh, have a data process that before we go back to
Speaker:school or go back to work.
Speaker:And if possible, like to work backwards from there.
Speaker:And I think about that a lot about life too.
Speaker:So you kind of have two approaches.
Speaker:You can be very averse to talking about the end of life and, uh,
Speaker:feel like it's taboo or feel like it's bad luck if you talk about it.
Speaker:And then there's obviously a very culturally driven thing, or
Speaker:you could talk about it openly.
Speaker:As something that's as inevitable as paying taxes or
Speaker:the end of football season.
Speaker:And approach it.
Speaker:Like you approach anything else in life to be organized and thoughtful
Speaker:or, um, you know, intentional about it.
Speaker:And obviously I run much more in that direction.
Speaker:I was talking to somebody.
Speaker:Um, about this topic, the topic of aging parents and death, I was
Speaker:actually, this was several months ago.
Speaker:Sharing the idea of the podcast and what we're going to talk about.
Speaker:And I included topics of death and dying, and they almost reached across the table
Speaker:and put their hand across my mouth.
Speaker:And they said, you, you cannot talk about it.
Speaker:If you speak about it, you've spoken it into the world and then it will happen.
Speaker:And I remember thinking, you know, and I want to be very, uh, very sensitive
Speaker:and, and acknowledged that there's very different cultural, cultural
Speaker:and religious backgrounds that create lots of different beliefs, but.
Speaker:I thought, you know, it isn't the speaking.
Speaker:Of death into the world that creates death.
Speaker:I mean, death is.
Speaker:The circle of life, right?
Speaker:That's just part of, part of the life.
Speaker:Like.
Speaker:It's going to come either way.
Speaker:And so whether it's spoken into or not, anyway, that was like
Speaker:the logical part of my brain.
Speaker:But then the second part of my brain, just that visceral reaction that this
Speaker:other person had to almost trying to, it almost looked like they were physically.
Speaker:Capturing my words out of the air and trying to push them back into my mouth.
Speaker:Is that there are some very strong.
Speaker:Gut level reactions to this topic.
Speaker:That if it's brought up, if it's discussed, if it's broached, then that
Speaker:hastens or that accelerates the concept or you've put it out into the world
Speaker:and then it might actually happen.
Speaker:And so I'd encourage you to think about yourself on that spectrum.
Speaker:So if, if one side of the spectrum is grabbing those words and pushing
Speaker:them back in my mouth and thinking don't ever say that out loud, we don't
Speaker:use that kind of language around.
Speaker:Uh, you know, our family, because that could cause bad problems or
Speaker:if you're so extremely comfortable.
Speaker:With death and dying that it's part of your daily, or maybe not daily,
Speaker:that might be a little morbid, but like it's part of your vernacular.
Speaker:It's part of what you talk about as part of what you're prepared for
Speaker:as . As part of what you're open about.
Speaker:I wonder just where are you on that spectrum?
Speaker:I think that's a really interesting concept and maybe.
Speaker:You were born into one part of the spectrum.
Speaker:You sort of want yourself or your family.
Speaker:To now end up.
Speaker:You know, a little bit further in one direction or the other I know
Speaker:with my kids, I, I very much want to normalize this and I want to
Speaker:normalize this as part of life.
Speaker:Not that there isn't, um, extreme sadness or grief or difficulty that comes with
Speaker:losing anybody that you care about.
Speaker:But in a way, thinking about it, like.
Speaker:There, there is a weaving of fabrics that comes when you are in other people's
Speaker:lives and the way I think about it as we are all our own little individual
Speaker:thread and yarn, all weaving into each other's lives and one way or the other.
Speaker:And so people weave into yours and then weave out and you even
Speaker:to others and then weave out.
Speaker:And then overall, if you stood back 30 feet, the fabric.
Speaker:Is bright and varied and diverse and gorgeous and luminous and interesting.
Speaker:And when you go to, maybe I'm thinking about this.
Speaker:At the museum tonight, but if you look back in human history, It is so vibrant
Speaker:and so amazing and so incredible.
Speaker:All the lives that have come before us and all the lives
Speaker:that are going to come after us.
Speaker:We're just this tiny little piece of yarn.
Speaker:Somewhere in the middle of this vast, incredible billions and billions and
Speaker:billions of pieces of thread and yarn.
Speaker:There is a beginning for us, and there is an end for us, but
Speaker:the overall fabric keeps going.
Speaker:And when you have children, you create more pieces of yarn that will
Speaker:hopefully last longer than your yarn.
Speaker:And then they will maybe have other impacts on other people
Speaker:and it just keeps it going.
Speaker:And when that piece of yarn is cut.
Speaker:When that time and that linked comes to an end for one reason or another.
Speaker:The whole tapestry stays intact.
Speaker:And the people that you had weaved into might miss you weaving into it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But they're going to continue weaving as well.
Speaker:When, when, when we step as far back as we can and just look at things.
Speaker:It's a, an honor and a privilege to be part of this tapestry.
Speaker:And you only have so much linked.
Speaker:You don't know what the length of it is.
Speaker:And I think this whole idea of really tightening up your yarn a little bit.
Speaker:The little piece that you do have, and, and focusing your energy and effort on how
Speaker:you're weaving into other people's lives.
Speaker:And what is that looking like?
Speaker:And how do you do that in a ways that are meaningful for you?
Speaker:And pulling you away from large amounts of material objects, just
Speaker:accumulating around you and maybe death cleaning is part of just that, that.
Speaker:Cleaning up around the edges, a little bit of tightening, a little bit of that.
Speaker:Uh, extreme accumulation that happens in early adulthood through your, your
Speaker:child rearing years and so forth.
Speaker:And really acknowledging another phase where you can
Speaker:experience life in a bigger way.
Speaker:By having less stuff, making decisions ahead of time, settling things ahead
Speaker:of time so that these aren't tasks, inevitable tests that are looming.
Speaker:For yourself or for somebody else later in life.
Speaker:So really at the end of it, definitely eating us almost like a really.
Speaker:Almost, I almost think of it like a ritual.
Speaker:A ritual to think about throughout your lifetime.
Speaker:Not because you're going to die imminently.
Speaker:Um, but because you're going to die someday.
Speaker:And you're just trying to simplify things as you go along.
Speaker:And so even though in the book, uh, I think the recommended age for doing this.
Speaker:At least as observed in the Swedish culture is around 65.
Speaker:Which would make sense because the, uh, uh, life expectancy is maybe
Speaker:in the mid seventies right now.
Speaker:And then at 65, you know, maybe that makes sense, but I think it
Speaker:makes sense at 35 and 45 and 55.
Speaker:And I think it as a concept being present with us,
Speaker:I think it pushes a little bit towards the concept of stoicism.
Speaker:I'll talk about that in a different podcast, for sure.
Speaker:But there was a couple of years ago, I got really deep into understanding stoicism.
Speaker:Partially just because of my own life.
Speaker:You are there.
Speaker:And secondly, secondly, because of a lot of the classical study I did
Speaker:back in college and in high school, um, with a lot of the Stoics.
Speaker:And so understanding stoicism, the core co.
Speaker:One of the core principles of stoicism is the acknowledgement
Speaker:that death is all around us and with us at all times, not as an enemy.
Speaker:But as a presence as a way to awaken us.
Speaker:That life is very short.
Speaker:That investing in meaning and investing in experiences,
Speaker:investing in others in ourselves.
Speaker:Is the point every day.
Speaker:Now, I'm sure you could watch a whole series of YouTube ads and
Speaker:not feel that way or commercials.
Speaker:And that's not really what the.
Speaker:Uh, promise of current consumption-based practices are, but, but stoicism,
Speaker:um, as a way of thinking, That life is short and being reminded
Speaker:of that as a way to be more alive.
Speaker:As opposed to avoiding the topic or avoiding the acknowledgment
Speaker:of a finite lifespan.
Speaker:And that that might change the way that you live so stoicism to the extent which
Speaker:it makes you more alive Is ironic right because you would look at it and think
Speaker:well who would want to think all the time that they could die Um but if this is
Speaker:a concept In your brain That makes you more alive that might be one to consider
Speaker:now if you're a clinician like i am You can't get around this right i mean you
Speaker:see catastrophic injuries Or death As part of your profession and so i have almost
Speaker:what i call a built in stoicism in my life because i can't get away from the
Speaker:reminders Of the finality of our lifespans and that our bodies do eventually
