Episode 27

Brittany: When you worry BEFORE your parents do

Welcome!

In this episode we look at the other end of the spectrum. What if you are the hyper-prepared or hyper-responsible type and you are the one more worried than anyone else? How do you approach your parents? How do you navigate these difficult topics?

Caveats:

  • This is a judgement free zone
  • There are no "shoulds" allowed, we live in curiosity
  • Take what works well for you, leave the rest!
  • This podcast is for informational purposes only; it is not intended as formal legal, financial or medical advice

My course "unSandwiched" is now LIVE

If you are finding value in this podcast, please share and leave a review so others can find it too!

Rebecca

Disclaimer: The information presented on this podcast is solely for information purposes. We do not provide medical, legal, financial, or other professional advice through this podcast and we are not responsible for any errors or omissions. It is your responsibility to seek advice from a licensed professional. Any actions you take are done at your own risk.

Transcript
Speaker:

Hello everyone.

2

:

Welcome back to another episode of

real conversations about aging parents.

3

:

This is your host, Rebecca.

4

:

And I have a longtime friend

and colleague with me here.

5

:

Hi, Brittany.

6

:

How are you?

7

:

Good.

8

:

How are you doing Rebecca?

9

:

Good.

10

:

I, you're, you're rubbing

in the good weather up there

11

:

for, for good reason, I think.

12

:

So it's about a hundred, 105 here

in late September in San Antonio.

13

:

And, and you're up in the Midwest, right?

14

:

I am up in the Midwest.

15

:

It's a mid sixties, a little

bit of breeze, nice and

16

:

sunny light jacket weather.

17

:

I can't complain, although I'm sure

I'll complain in a couple of months when

18

:

we have a foot of snow on the ground.

19

:

Right, right.

20

:

Well, well, thank you

for being with me today.

21

:

I, um, I know you've been a big supporter

of the project and, and, uh, this is a

22

:

topic that is real for you and your life

and your, your name came to mind because

23

:

in capturing this entire issue or journey.

24

:

People are at different points of the

journey and so I've interviewed a lot

25

:

of people that have already gone through

this and their parents have passed

26

:

away and we're kind of reflecting back.

27

:

I've interviewed people that are right

in the middle of it and for you, I see

28

:

you as, as far as like a time spectrum,

kind of at the very beginning of worrying

29

:

or thinking about it even though I know

nothing, severe has happened, but, um,

30

:

I'm really interested in, in your mindset,

what you worry about, what keeps you up.

31

:

Um, and we'll get into that, but

before we do all that, can you tell

32

:

us just a little bit more about

yourself, like what you enjoy doing,

33

:

your hobbies, anything like that?

34

:

Sure.

35

:

Yeah.

36

:

So, um, I'm a doctor, you know, it's

certainly how I met you was kind of

37

:

through healthcare, um, moved up here to

the Midwest with my family from Texas.

38

:

So traded one season all year round for

four seasons, a little bit of a different

39

:

change of pace, change of weather.

40

:

Um, I have a little toddler

girl who's absolutely wonderful.

41

:

And then.

42

:

Hobby wise, kind of anything outside,

which is what the Midwest has really

43

:

been great for trails, cross country

skiing, sledding, all those things have

44

:

been really fun since being up here.

45

:

So, um, looking forward to a

little bit change of weather here

46

:

to enjoy some of that stuff too.

47

:

Yeah.

48

:

Yeah.

49

:

You're mentioning the apple picking too.

50

:

And that just seems like a

storybook, uh, to be Apple.

51

:

We went and picked apples and

pumpkins and, uh, played on

52

:

tractors and got apple doughnuts.

53

:

So, uh, yeah, so very, very

Midwest day for us up here.

54

:

Yeah.

55

:

And I'm, and I'm, and I'm

capturing you during a nap time.

56

:

So I appreciate you creating space.

57

:

Flexible with that.

58

:

Unless you want toddler

sounds in the background.

59

:

No, no, I already have tortoise

sounds in the background.

60

:

I don't know if anybody could

ever hear them, but I record

61

:

next to my son's tortoise.

62

:

And, and I sometimes can hear it when I

listen back to the podcast and I'm like,

63

:

I don't know how to make this stop anyway,

I'll have to listen to the tortoise now.

64

:

Yeah.

65

:

Yeah.

66

:

Now everybody's gonna be paranoid.

67

:

What's that, that banging

sound in the back?

68

:

And it's the tortoise.

69

:

Um, anyway.

70

:

Okay.

71

:

So you're here because you're an

adult child, uh, in the middle of a

72

:

professional career and raising your

own family and you, um, have parents.

73

:

And we'll just start there.

74

:

What, what's the next part of that story?

75

:

Yeah.

76

:

So all, all the above, um, fortunately

both of my parents are in pretty good

77

:

health, you know, kind of mid to late

sixties, they divorced about 10 years

78

:

ago and They're both kind of in various

stages of financial stability, but also

79

:

denial, or I should say knowledge of the

aging process and kind of aging in places.

80

:

You've always beautifully

said what that looks like.

81

:

I think when they were married, they had a

lot of those conversations, but since they

82

:

divorced, I don't think there's been much

conversation on either of their part, kind

83

:

of what that looks like as they get older.

84

:

Um, my mom has a new partner.

85

:

They're not.

86

:

Not married, but I wouldn't be

surprised if that was something

87

:

to happen in the near future.

88

:

Um, my dad still single.

89

:

So both of those also bring

kind of different dynamics.

90

:

So I think part of it is to us

moving up here from Texas, knowing

91

:

that if something happened to my

parents or my husband's parents.

92

:

We would be the adult children

that would be the ones to step

93

:

in physically and financially.

94

:

And it's always a stressful

conversation, but it's one thing

95

:

when you're in the same state versus

now that we're up in Wisconsin.

96

:

I think we feel a little bit more of

an urge to just kind of have these

97

:

conversations sooner rather than later.

98

:

Um, and just kind of be prepared

because, you know, yeah.

99

:

Coming from the rehab world, like

yourself, you know, you don't, you

100

:

don't get a forewarning on these things.

101

:

You know, there's either, I feel

like there's either a gradual

102

:

decline and everyone's kind of in

denial for a while and kind of puts

103

:

their head under the rug and then

something catastrophic happens or.

104

:

There's something catastrophic that

you're not really anticipating like

105

:

a young stroke or heart attack.

106

:

And you've got to have some tough

conversations pretty immediately

107

:

and probably never at a good point

in life if there is such a thing.

108

:

Right.

109

:

Um, so I think we kind of feel

that urgency to be as prepared

110

:

as we can long distance.

111

:

But I think one of the things I

struggled with putting into words,

112

:

which podcasts is also having these

conversations with our parents.

113

:

Um, and I can speak much more to,

but also my husband's parents who are

114

:

also divorced while they have their

mental capabilities while we can sit

115

:

here and still talk about it, but

also include the other adult children.

116

:

So it's not like a one sided of, Oh,

it's just us having these conversations,

117

:

like really include everyone and actually

ask them, you know, what do you want the

118

:

end stages of your life to look like?

119

:

I'm not just talking like

palliative versus hospice, but okay.

120

:

What's your ideal scenario of.

121

:

You know, you need a little

help now and then you're 75.

122

:

What does that look like?

123

:

You know, are you okay with

nursing homes assisted living?

124

:

Do you want someone to come

in and move in with you?

125

:

You know, we haven't had

any of those conversations.

126

:

I've gotten a little bit

of resistance about it.

127

:

Um, I know it's not, you know, a happy

conversation, but I, I, I, so I, I

128

:

think a lot of it was the move up here.

129

:

Just kind of really put that in

our face to try and be as Um, and I

130

:

think it's you mentioned resistance.

131

:

Can you get more specific?

132

:

Like, did you tell?

133

:

We'll talk first about your dad.

134

:

So did you text your dad and

say, I want to talk about this?

135

:

And he wrote back like a sad

face emoji or like, how did

136

:

this actually look in real life?

137

:

I haven't been that blunt.

138

:

I think of I actually sat him

and down and said, Hey, I'm

139

:

going to talk about these things.

140

:

And this is why I think he'd actually

be pretty receptive, but it's kind of

141

:

like, Hey, dad, have you updated your

well, your beneficiary for 401k, you

142

:

know, all those things since the divorce.

143

:

And he's like, no, I haven't

even thought about that.

144

:

Okay.

145

:

Have you updated your MPOA?

146

:

No, I don't need to do any of that.

147

:

So it just kind of stops there.

148

:

I think there's a little bit

of I'm healthy, which he is.

149

:

Thankfully I'll be fine forever.

150

:

I have plenty of time type of thing.

151

:

And it's like, I certainly hope we

have plenty of time, but that's, you

152

:

know, kind of how we end up not having.

153

:

Plenty of time is by what

that mindset I feel like.

154

:

Um, so I, I think if I sat him down, he'd

be very receptive, especially if I told

155

:

him it was something really important to

me and to us to have these conversations.

156

:

I think he'd be a little more receptive.

157

:

Now, he was actually the, um, in

charge of his brother's finances

158

:

and he was his brother's MPOA who

passed away last year from cancer.

159

:

Um, so I think he has a new understanding.

160

:

My, my uncle was.

161

:

You know, very on top of it

legally as far as those things.

162

:

He knew he had cancer.

163

:

So he, you know, kind of set

everything up pretty early on.

164

:

Um, but even that there was still

plenty of headaches, which was a

165

:

little surprising, but I mean, my dad

was listed as his MPOA and they never

166

:

talked about what that actually meant.

167

:

So my dad didn't know what his brother

actually wanted for end of life.

168

:

He didn't know when he

wanted to be DNR, DNI.

169

:

They never had those conversations

of kind of, okay, when do we need to

170

:

change gears on our treatment plans?

171

:

And it wasn't until my

uncle, you know, was.

172

:

A and O times one.

173

:

And, you know, they were talking about

intubating and dialysis and, you know,

174

:

end stage organ failure, pick all the

organs that I kind of had to have a talk

175

:

with my dad of, you know, you do what you

think he would have wanted, but kind of,

176

:

you know, I think this is where it kind

of benefits sometimes to have someone

177

:

medical in the family, be able to lay

out for him what that actually meant.

178

:

And I think my dad felt a lot of stress

and anguish about making those decisions

179

:

without having talked about it first.

180

:

Cause he actually, he had no, I had

no idea what he would have wanted.

181

:

They never talked about it.

182

:

Um, so I think having that experience

would give me a little bit more of

183

:

a leg to stand on, at least with,

with my dad about those things.

184

:

So when I'm, I'm listening to that

and I do appreciate you sharing, I'm

185

:

wondering in your brain, the difference

between where you're sitting right

186

:

now, having sent, you know, a couple

of questions say about the will or

187

:

something like that, and then actually

sitting in front of him, what's the

188

:

distance between those two points?

189

:

Is it, is it your brain thinking, you

know, I don't really want to talk about

190

:

this or is it just like kind of float

to the bottom of any busy to do lists?

191

:

Is it, um, you're not in town and

so you want to make sure you're

192

:

in town or something like that.

193

:

I think it's a few things.

194

:

I think it's easy, you know, for it

to float to the bottom of, of any.

195

:

Busy to do list.

196

:

And it's not, you know, a to do item

that you can check off in five minutes.

197

:

Right.

198

:

There's no dopamine for

that, that checkoff.

199

:

Yeah.

200

:

It's one of those daunting to do items.

201

:

So I think that, and I think it's also

something that, I mean, I could definitely

202

:

preface with him before he, he would come

up to visit, but I think it'd be much

203

:

more meaningful to have some of those

conversations in person, which, you know,

204

:

being long distance puts a cramp in that.

205

:

So it's not.

206

:

Impossible.

207

:

Um, so I, I think it's more of me

also just initiating it and kind

208

:

of pushing back past his initial.

209

:

Oh, I don't need to do that.

210

:

Or I'll get to it and then

he changes the subject.

211

:

I think if I just sit down and push past

it, I think he'll be pretty receptive.

212

:

Um, and then I think also, at least,

like, you know, 6 months ago, when

213

:

all this started kind of brewing

in our head, really was not, I felt

214

:

like, you know, it's kind of you

don't know what you don't know.

215

:

Right, right.

216

:

I knew we weren't prepared for the next.

217

:

10, 20, 30 years, whatever stage we

end up in, but I didn't know what

218

:

we weren't prepared about other

than we hadn't talked about things.

219

:

Um, if that makes sense.

220

:

So, I mean, yes, the will

finances afterwards, but what

221

:

about everything leading up?

222

:

To that.

223

:

So, and I, I think since listening

to your podcast as well, it's, you

224

:

know, definitely kind of given me

some more description and some more

225

:

tangible items of things to talk about.

226

:

Um, I really enjoyed the one on, on

elder law, cause it's just, I mean,

227

:

having briefly brought up some of this

with my dad and he was just like, well,

228

:

Medicare, we'll take care of all of it.

229

:

And I'm like, well, no,

yeah, no, not how this works.

230

:

Um, and he was referencing like.

231

:

24 7 in home care or going to

a facility and I was just like,

232

:

so neither of that is true.

233

:

Um, so I, I think me also learning

what are some tangible things

234

:

that I can bring up with them.

235

:

So it's not also just

as doom and gloom of.

236

:

Hey, you're getting old.

237

:

Let's talk about this, which is probably

not a great way to bring any of it up.

238

:

One of the, um, very early things I

did in this project, I put it out on my

239

:

website and it was the download about

how to have some of these conversations.

240

:

And one of the things I

really wanted to focus on.

241

:

Was to make it, um, another way for them

to support you, because if it's like,

242

:

let's, let's acknowledge that, that

this is, you know, a difficult thing to

243

:

acknowledge and we're going to make all

these, um, arrangements, but the idea

244

:

is, Hey, I know you care about me and I

know you've always been concerned about.

245

:

Me and I, I take this

responsibility very seriously.

246

:

And as part of that, I need

your help, uh, to make sure I

247

:

make good decisions for you.

248

:

And then it's like a, a joint partnership.

249

:

It's not like, you know, coming in

and, um, and saying, you know, well,

250

:

you didn't do this and you have to

do this or, you know, um, kind of

251

:

in a, uh, Clinical standpoint, I

guess, you know, but that connection.

252

:

And so I think the language

will have to vary by each family

253

:

relationship and be and be specific.

254

:

But even coming into the holiday season,

I really like the idea of, you know,

255

:

I don't need like a fancy toaster.

256

:

I need us to sit down

and talk for 30 minutes.

257

:

And that would mean everything to me

because that's the kind of stuff in

258

:

the middle you and I are in rehab.

259

:

So in the middle of that chaos that

we get to witness and rehab, the last

260

:

thing somebody wants is a fancy toaster.

261

:

They go back to the last 30 minute

conversation they had with that

262

:

person and they hang on every word.

263

:

That they can recall.

264

:

Yeah.

265

:

And I think that's a beautiful way

to put it as a joint partnership.

266

:

And, you know, both my

parents love us very much.

267

:

And so I know, especially phrasing it

that way, even if they're kind of like,

268

:

Oh, this is, this is a little silly.

269

:

We don't need to do this.

270

:

I think they would do it for us.

271

:

But then hopefully also in the

process, they would see some.

272

:

Some value with it as well.

273

:

And I really think they would,

but you bring that up about the

274

:

holidays and I've already thought

of my mind of, Hey, I don't want any

275

:

presence for the next however long.

276

:

This is what I want.

277

:

You know, I want to have

these conversations with you.

278

:

And it doesn't have to be okay.

279

:

We're going to do everything in one day.

280

:

That's not possible, especially if you

get legal stuff involved, but Okay.

281

:

Let's just at least open these doors

and get some of it laid out there.

282

:

And maybe we'll make that our goal

to kind of finish all this over,

283

:

you know, 2024 or whatever it is.

284

:

So it's not as daunting or there, you

know, one trip up here it's to talk

285

:

about, you know, depressing things.

286

:

So, uh, not to make this dark in any

way, but if we're thinking about this, I

287

:

don't want to be ageist in this idea that

somehow this is only a unique issue for

288

:

them when, uh, David and I are embarking

on our own estate planning journey.

289

:

And I'll be detailing that

in the podcast and elsewhere.

290

:

But I also think about my own kids.

291

:

If something happened to us and I need to.

292

:

Create a pathway for my parents or

his parents to help my own children.

293

:

So this isn't like, okay, you're on

the conveyor belt and you're like a

294

:

stage ahead of me on a conveyor belt.

295

:

So let's make sure you get taken care of.

296

:

This is about the responsibility that,

that we have to our own families as well.

297

:

And then making it a cohesive,

this is a way that our family

298

:

cares about each other.

299

:

By making this easy, um, should

something catastrophic happen.

300

:

And so going through the, uh, estate

planning, then we, David and I

301

:

decide for our own children, um, if

something happened to us and we do

302

:

travel a lot together without our

kids, which is a risk factor, right?

303

:

Um, You know, then I want,

uh, that to be set up as well.

304

:

And my, my, my parents would be

involved with, with their guardianship

305

:

or their support, or, you know, it

would, they, I would need them, uh,

306

:

and they're, they're healthy as well.

307

:

And so it's, it's not so much

like, okay, you're the one

308

:

getting old and I'm the young one.

309

:

And so now we've got to get

together and talk about this.

310

:

I'm like, what if we just

talked about this longitudinally

311

:

throughout our generations and

figured out what that looked like.

312

:

To protect people.

313

:

Um, and not even if it even if

there's not money involved, the

314

:

idea is there's still a lot of legal

work that becomes very inconvenient.

315

:

And so when people tell me, you know, I

don't really need to think about that.

316

:

I'm really healthy.

317

:

I always want to, you know, depending

on the conversation, I say, I know

318

:

you don't want to think about it,

but the state will make a lot of

319

:

assumptions for you if you don't declare.

320

:

And, um, depending on people's

different opinions of the government,

321

:

It'll be like, no, the government will

decide that there are laws of what

322

:

will happen with all these things and

they will make it can make it very

323

:

difficult for your family members to

engage and support and make decisions

324

:

without certain paperwork involved.

325

:

And I'm like, Oh, the government,

I don't want the government

326

:

making decisions for me.

327

:

Okay, well then.

328

:

There's a process to tell ahead

of time through legal documents,

329

:

what you want to happen.

330

:

And that's, that kind of gets back

to the point is, um, just even our

331

:

own personhood, our own autonomy is

spoken for through these documents,

332

:

especially the living will, right?

333

:

Which is what you want done

in the setting of an illness.

334

:

Um, and that's you speaking

for yourself later.

335

:

And I think people realize, or they

think to themselves, well, if I,

336

:

if I'm healthy and I don't want

to think about it, It'll go away.

337

:

And the point is, there's already

a default set of assumptions.

338

:

Even in medical care that we

have to make if there's no

339

:

paperwork saying otherwise, right?

340

:

And so it's like, once we remind them

of that, the default is it nothing.

341

:

It's not no decision.

342

:

The decision is already made.

343

:

You have to get documentation

to move and be more specific.

344

:

If you don't want sort

of the general anyway.

345

:

So I think about that because I

always, in the podcast, I don't want

346

:

to ever come across like we're, you

know, the adult children pushing

347

:

the, you know, um, aging parent into

this idea is this is a, uh, a hygiene

348

:

thing for everybody, but it becomes

more relevant and much more higher,

349

:

um, higher risk of becoming relevant.

350

:

Higher likelihood, you know, absolutely.

351

:

And I think you said it well, and I

think, you know, listening to that, you

352

:

know, one thing that you asked earlier is

kind of, you know, What started kind of

353

:

our wheels turn in this direction, maybe

subconsciously was that just, you know,

354

:

we have a one and a half year old daughter

is kind of, well, before her, you know,

355

:

there's a default, everything just goes

to the other partner, you know, just have

356

:

the beneficiary box check, no big deal.

357

:

Now things are a little more complicated.

358

:

Um, and so thinking about it from

her perspective, you know, also on

359

:

my ever growing to do list is to, you

know, update our, our state for For

360

:

that reason, and I know it's no longer

just, all right, who gets the dogs?

361

:

It's a little, it's a guardianship.

362

:

Yeah.

363

:

It's a guardianship.

364

:

And like, you know, we know who we

would want to be though that those

365

:

people, and it would not be who the

government would pick by default.

366

:

Right.

367

:

Um, and so that's, you know,

It's not just really our, our

368

:

focus right now is our parents.

369

:

Cause you know, there's.

370

:

More than one of them.

371

:

And so we, we, we got four sets to chisel

down here, but also with ourselves, but

372

:

we can at least hopefully, you know,

get our stuff done a little quicker

373

:

because we don't have to convince anyone.

374

:

We've already convinced ourselves.

375

:

He has gotta, you know, somehow

make time to do it Monday

376

:

through Friday, nine to five.

377

:

But so what are you most worried about?

378

:

With, with regard to being an adult

child, uh, out of state with a

379

:

career and a kid managing four sets

of your, you know, parents and in

380

:

laws and step and all that stuff.

381

:

I think what we're most worried about

is something catastrophic happening.

382

:

Whether that's.

383

:

You know, if someone has a heart attack

in the next year, so, you know, heart

384

:

attack in their sixties and they're

left pretty disabled afterwards, or

385

:

it's this slow decline and we're flying

down at midnight, you know, a couple of

386

:

times a year for, you know, a fall and

landing in the hospital, but whatever,

387

:

you know, event happening, these things

happening without any prior discussion.

388

:

So prior discussion of

what are their wishes of.

389

:

You know, do you want to stay in Texas?

390

:

Do you want to come move in with us?

391

:

What do you want?

392

:

But also just any knowledge from

our perspective of where, what,

393

:

what, what, how should I say this?

394

:

What all the legal things are set up to

be, you know, should something happen?

395

:

And I'm not.

396

:

Listed as, you know, someone

that can be on your accounts.

397

:

I know that process is pretty long.

398

:

I mean, goodness, just even selling

someone's car after they pass, if that's

399

:

not in the will, and you're not on the

title is a whole nightmare by itself.

400

:

So these little things that seem little

by themselves, but are actually pretty big

401

:

or, Hey, who is your mortgage set up with?

402

:

So I can make sure that's to get

paid while you're in the hospital.

403

:

So.

404

:

I think it would be something

catastrophic happening without any

405

:

conversations about their wishes

or knowledge about their finances.

406

:

So we can best support them, whether

they're in the hospital or it's

407

:

an, you know, a tough end of life

discussion, kind of where you go

408

:

from from there, especially when we.

409

:

Both have siblings and we want them to be

involved in those conversations, but we

410

:

know we would be the ones more likely kind

of taking the lead on those decisions,

411

:

but we would still want everyone to feel

like they have been included on them.

412

:

Why do you feel like y'all would

be the ones taking the lead?

413

:

We...

414

:

Kind of have for a lot of family things.

415

:

Um, both of our, our siblings are pretty

busy with, with where they are right now.

416

:

And they both kind of struggle

with making difficult decisions.

417

:

And they both said that they would

like to support us as best as they can.

418

:

And they want to be there with, you

know, as parents, as they age, they're

419

:

also somewhat aware of this process.

420

:

But I think emotionally, it would be Not

that it wouldn't be hard on us, but I

421

:

think it would be pretty hard for them.

422

:

And one of them lives out of state and has

a kiddo that needs some medical attention.

423

:

So, you know, logistically, that's

a pretty big barrier by itself.

424

:

But, you know, it's just as, you know,

when tough decisions happen in stressful

425

:

situations, I know it can be, as you

and I have both seen, it can be really,

426

:

it can get contentious with families.

427

:

But maybe.

428

:

could have been somewhat avoided

if things have been talked about

429

:

before and we wouldn't want that

to happen with our families either.

430

:

And I, um, wanted to circle back to

you just mentioning, uh, selling a car.

431

:

So somebody needed a lot of extra

help and you needed, um, you

432

:

know, money to get a caregiver

in the house, which is expensive.

433

:

Um, and you were going to

try to, to sell the car.

434

:

We also have to remember the person

trying to sell the car and get

435

:

the caregiver is, is in grief.

436

:

And in a, in a stress reaction and

their life is turned upside down

437

:

trying to help that other person.

438

:

So it's not just any person like,

Oh, let's go through the bureaucratic

439

:

process of selling the car when you

don't have the title or whatever.

440

:

It's like, let me take the

person who's already at.

441

:

The end of their rope and

doing their own grief reaction.

442

:

Oh, and add that.

443

:

So, so I, just to, just to make it

even more important to highlight

444

:

that what we're asking somebody

to do at that point, they're not

445

:

in the best condition to do that.

446

:

And we can't think of them like they

are today thinking, Oh, it'd be easy

447

:

for Brittany to figure this out.

448

:

Right.

449

:

Well, no, and you know, it's, it's funny.

450

:

I use that example because my

uncle who passed again had probably

451

:

99 percent of things very well

set up financially and legally.

452

:

But ironically, the one thing he

never mentioned anywhere in his.

453

:

State or any or will was his car.

454

:

Um, and it sounds funny and

hindsight, but, you know, after he

455

:

passed, my, my uncle had, you know,

said the days before he passed.

456

:

Oh, just do what you want with the

car because he realized he forgot

457

:

to kind of included anything.

458

:

It's like, all right, well,

that sounds easy enough.

459

:

Everyone's on really

good terms in the family.

460

:

No one's going to question that.

461

:

We'll just sell it, you know, help

with expenses, whatever it is.

462

:

Um, well, we was.

463

:

And so here we are, everyone's grieving

after a passing, going through his

464

:

apartment and trying to find every

little piece of paper to just find a

465

:

car title that only had his name on it.

466

:

And then you couldn't.

467

:

Sell it until you got the

death certificate and the death

468

:

certificate took months to get right.

469

:

And then you had to go down to the

courthouse and show all these documents.

470

:

And then they would add you to the title.

471

:

Um, well, they did that with my dad,

but then they misspelled his name.

472

:

So then he wasn't actually, and

in the meantime, he's just, you

473

:

know, trying to, he's grieving.

474

:

He just really wants everything done.

475

:

He's just trying to, you know,

close this chapter, at least

476

:

financially get everything on.

477

:

So he can grieve emotionally.

478

:

And so it sounds funny in hindsight,

but it really was this drawn out thing.

479

:

And it is something that should be

so simple, you know, Hey, my loved

480

:

one said I could just sell their car.

481

:

Well, there's actually

a lot involved with it.

482

:

Um, So it's, it's just, I

think it's just appreciation of

483

:

something that should be simple.

484

:

Never is in the moment when the person

who legally owns these things, whether

485

:

it's accounts, PO boxes, you know,

the, their name is on the mortgage.

486

:

If they don't have capacity, getting

any of those things changed over to

487

:

someone else, it's incredibly difficult

and time consuming and expensive.

488

:

Um, so I think it's just a, you know,

an appreciation for how difficult

489

:

of a process those things can be.

490

:

Well, um, thank you for following up

so that that was a real life example.

491

:

So, um, let's talk a little

bit more about your mom.

492

:

So what's different about

your mindset with your mom?

493

:

Yeah.

494

:

So I think a little similar as far

as when you, you asked that great

495

:

question about what the resistance is.

496

:

I think it's more of, you know, I bring

it up and she's like, oh yeah, things

497

:

are, things are changed since the divorce.

498

:

And it's like, okay, well.

499

:

You know, did you do X, Y, and Z?

500

:

And she's like, well, no,

I don't need to do that.

501

:

And it's like, well, I mean, so I, I

think she has something set up, but

502

:

I think, you know, she goes from one

conversation of, saying she has enough

503

:

finances to provide 24, seven care

for the last 10 years of her life.

504

:

If she wants to.

505

:

She has nothing like that saved up.

506

:

So it's like just giant spectrum

of, all right, mom, where are you?

507

:

Where are you on here?

508

:

So again, obviously, you know,

divorced my dad about 10 years ago.

509

:

Um, still.

510

:

Legally single, although she does

have a partner who they are, you

511

:

know, very happy together there.

512

:

They don't they don't live together,

but I could certainly see them getting

513

:

married in the next couple of years.

514

:

He also has adult

children, um, and having.

515

:

You know, kind of asking her of not to

be a, it's, it's an interesting role

516

:

reversal as a daughter, but kind of

asking her if, you know, is she happy

517

:

where she sees us going, but kind of

also, and, you know, asking if there

518

:

is marriage in the future, what, you

know, estate planning looks like.

519

:

And it's just kind of like, oh, well.

520

:

We don't need to worry about that.

521

:

It's like, well, yes and no, it's,

you know, however you guys want to do

522

:

things, but also when it comes to end of

life discussions, you know, if you guys

523

:

haven't had those conversations, I'm

not trying to insert myself there, but.

524

:

You know, how, how can I be of help

to that, but I also want to know what

525

:

your end of life wishes are because

she has, I know she has me legally

526

:

listed as her MPOA, but I think

there's also kind of this misconception

527

:

that I think you kind of touched on

in previous podcasts of dying is,

528

:

you know, an, an overnight thing.

529

:

It's like, well, there's

usually this tough decline.

530

:

So whether it's acute, you know,

on chronic decompensated heart

531

:

failure, and then all these other

things happen in your septic.

532

:

It's not a 24 hour thing.

533

:

Usually, you know, there's a

slow, gradual decline in the

534

:

hospital and none of it's pretty.

535

:

So actually having those

conversations of okay, at what point.

536

:

You know, do you want a feeding

tube or antibiotics or intubation?

537

:

I think she just thinks it's, Oh,

I'm going to go in and be sick.

538

:

And then the next day

I just won't be here.

539

:

It's like, well, usually not that case.

540

:

So I think similar to my dad and

that we just haven't really had those

541

:

conversations and I think she would be

very receptive if I did bring them up.

542

:

Just the little, you know, curve ball

for her is her potentially having,

543

:

you know, a husband in the next.

544

:

A few years, and certainly a lot of

these conversations, you know, I, I

545

:

don't mean to get in their relationship

at all, but I think they're important

546

:

to have, especially when you have

a later in life marriage and adult

547

:

children involved on both perspectives.

548

:

I'm glad you said that because, um,

actually it was Renee in one of the

549

:

very first podcasts I did brought

this up and I pointed this out to me

550

:

because she also has divorced parents

and in the new coupling, right?

551

:

So if you have a parent that remarries.

552

:

Then that's a new legal relationship.

553

:

And if your parent, your biological

parent, passes away, then, uh, the

554

:

assets go to your current step parent.

555

:

Correct.

556

:

And if that person passes away, then

the assets go to their children.

557

:

And so, the biological children

of the first person to pass

558

:

away can be disinherited.

559

:

Correct.

560

:

Very easily.

561

:

Now, assuming there's, you know,

I don't come from a community

562

:

with assets and estates and money,

so it's not really a big deal.

563

:

But if you're looking at people

that have built a lot of assets over

564

:

their lifetime, you could easily see

them flow around their own children

565

:

and grandchildren just by default.

566

:

Again, this is not like.

567

:

And then the biological children of

the person who's passed away have no,

568

:

um, I mean, I'm sure that they could

try to, try to finagle this or sue or

569

:

something in those, in those settings.

570

:

But the idea is it's a, it's a, it's a

legal flow of assets and it's not set up,

571

:

then that's the default and people don't.

572

:

Really realize.

573

:

Correct.

574

:

And actually I brought that up with her.

575

:

Um, and she was kind of like, Oh,

there's no way that's actually how it is.

576

:

I'm like, Oh, I'm not a lawyer.

577

:

However, pretty sure this is how

it is, but I kind of used it as

578

:

like, you know, maybe we should,

you know, kind of talk about this.

579

:

And, and I told her, I was like,

you know, I'm not telling you

580

:

what to do with your, your money.

581

:

And I'm kind of like yourself,

Rebecca, we don't have giant assets

582

:

floating around, but it's more of

just having that, that conversation

583

:

of if that's what you're okay with.

584

:

Great.

585

:

But if that's not, or maybe it's

not a money thing, but there's some

586

:

heirlooms or some family jewelry

or whatever it is, having those

587

:

conversations so that that's not the

natural default, you know, either way.

588

:

And there's a good chance,

you know, his adult children.

589

:

We may only meet a couple of times.

590

:

I mean, we, we live across the country,

you know, later in life marriages, it's

591

:

a different dynamic than, you know,

when you, your parents get remarried

592

:

when you're still in the house.

593

:

So yeah, it's just a different

curve ball to talk about that.

594

:

I don't think she realizes

those implications either.

595

:

And not going back to something

else you had said about having

596

:

funding for 24 hour care.

597

:

I think it's important for people

to know the estimates of actually

598

:

providing that in home at any level

of quality is about 150, 000 a year.

599

:

Oh, no, I absolutely.

600

:

And I think for my dad's kind of made

some offhand comments about like,

601

:

well, I'll just do that, you know,

either Medicare, I'll pay for it.

602

:

And he's been a little more open

about his finances with myself.

603

:

And I'm like, I, you don't, that's,

that's, that's not an option, right?

604

:

Unless, unless he got a goldmine, you're

not telling me about that's not an option.

605

:

Um, so I think that's also where

I really liked the idea of having.

606

:

And from my understanding, this was

where this person would come in,

607

:

but having an elder law attorney

to kind of bring up some of these

608

:

conversations as well and kind of

give these actual realistic scenarios.

609

:

Now, again, not to be doom and gloom,

but okay, if scenario A is what you

610

:

want, how are we going to protect your

assets or how are we going to manage

611

:

that so that it actually can happen?

612

:

Or if you do want 24 seven care

and you have the finances, do we

613

:

need to go ahead and put your adult

children on whatever account this is?

614

:

Because again, what if, That needs to

take place when, you know, you have a UTI

615

:

in your septic or, you know, when, when

you don't have the mental capabilities to

616

:

make some of those financial decisions or

to kind of, uh, to, yeah, to really push

617

:

the button on, on being able to do that.

618

:

So I think that would be helpful from

all of their perspectives, because

619

:

I don't think they understand.

620

:

Truly what the actual

financial options are.

621

:

And I'll say this.

622

:

Um, when I developed the, the course

that I have, the fifth module, it's

623

:

the final module is that exactly.

624

:

And it starts with a document of

like, where, what can we talk about?

625

:

And it's a list of like, what are

you, like, just start somewhere.

626

:

Right.

627

:

Can we talk about, um,

financing personal care?

628

:

Can we talk about hygiene?

629

:

Can we talk about your

thoughts about assisted living?

630

:

And then it starts with that document.

631

:

And then behind that, I spent a lot

of time going through these intricate

632

:

conversations, um, and it's a line

by line discussion of like these

633

:

question prompts, like, okay, if

you needed a shower, would you want?

634

:

Um, a caregiver to do it, or is it

okay if your spouse or your child

635

:

does it and, and, and I know this

sounds silly, but these are, these

636

:

are, um, people's personal, um, you

know, comfort levels and their wishes.

637

:

I mean, it's like the, like,

what, what do you want?

638

:

I mean, assuming these

things can be controlled for.

639

:

And so I really ended up writing that

with, with this exact conversation

640

:

of mine, which would be, how can we

facilitate these conversations and

641

:

maybe putting them out on paper?

642

:

Um, depersonalizes it just enough to be

able to open up the gate to say, okay,

643

:

well, this, somebody else wrote this,

but now we can go through and fill it

644

:

out like a little worksheet or something.

645

:

Um, but I really think that's where

we need to be at some point, um, is to

646

:

approach it almost like we do any other

administrative decision, quote unquote,

647

:

we make in our life, because it's the

most important one and does dictate our

648

:

experience towards the end of our lives.

649

:

Right.

650

:

Um, and even if the answer is, I get

this sense from my own dad, which is

651

:

like, just you do whatever you think.

652

:

Do what you think is right.

653

:

Like you're a doctor and like,

you know, and like, I trust you.

654

:

And so I'm like, okay, good.

655

:

Um, I guess that's good.

656

:

So anyway, um, that, that is also another

sentiment, but even that he said that

657

:

I'm like, well, okay, well I trust

my, I mean, I know what I would want.

658

:

Um, and I'm in the process of

spelling that out myself, so I

659

:

would just make it similar, I guess.

660

:

So anyway, No, and you brought up

something I was going to say to,

661

:

you know, I don't know if you ever

experienced this, but as you know, being

662

:

a physician for my parents, it's or not

for my parents, but, you know, I'm, I'm

663

:

the only medical person in the family.

664

:

Um, so I get the random phone calls

to diagnose rashes, even though I'm

665

:

a pain doctor, I'm nothing to do with

rashes or the random ingrown toenail,

666

:

you know, you get those questions, but

I think when it kind of comes to these.

667

:

Bigger things like, you know,

someone being borderline diabetic or

668

:

cholesterol, not being great or medical

decision making for end of life.

669

:

It's, it's almost this, well,

that's when they see me as.

670

:

The daughter, not the doctor of

kind of like, well, you know,

671

:

that's when it's like, when it's

the serious things, it's like, I'm,

672

:

I'm the kid in their eyes still.

673

:

And so now they don't trust me or

don't believe me, but it's like, well,

674

:

okay, but let's ask someone else.

675

:

Right.

676

:

I think there's a little bit of

that too, you know, I'm always

677

:

going to be their daughter first.

678

:

And even though these things are

hard, I think it's hard for them

679

:

to see me in this role 100%, which

is where I think it would be.

680

:

That's why I think it's really valuable to

get almost a third party involved, whether

681

:

that's through elder estate planning or

using your course, just kind of having

682

:

a more objective third eye, if you will.

683

:

Um, because there's only so much that

I'm going to be able to provide them in

684

:

direction because there's a lot that I

don't know either, you know, just about,

685

:

you know, if you qualify for a Medicaid

bed and in Texas, you know, you have

686

:

to have less than 2000 to your name.

687

:

So what do you do with your

house and your other assets?

688

:

I don't know.

689

:

I don't know the answers to

those, but I don't want us to

690

:

have to figure out last minute.

691

:

I was like, that's a, that should

be a low surprise period of life.

692

:

You don't want any assumptions and

surprises when you're trying to

693

:

navigate these complex like insurance

and government funded programs.

694

:

I mean, that's not a good time.

695

:

And I, I, I wonder, I've always,

one of the things I've thought

696

:

we've always had in common is you

and I are both organized and try

697

:

to execute things in a certain way.

698

:

And I've always looked at this part of

my life like, I like to have it done

699

:

and then I can relax and it's like, then

I hope nothing ever happens and then

700

:

I could, I could lean into the hope.

701

:

I hope nothing bad

happens to any of us ever.

702

:

But if it does, then this is

ready and I, and I think that's a

703

:

completely different approach to life.

704

:

Then other, other people, I think, or

maybe, um, uh, a different temperament

705

:

of, let's just see what happens.

706

:

Let's just like, let's just go through

and like, let's hope for the best.

707

:

And, uh, and I, I bring this up when

I talked to my, my dad in that podcast

708

:

and I pushed about, you know, whether or

not, what if he needed a nursing home?

709

:

And he's like, like, basically

I'll leave it up to God.

710

:

And God wouldn't do that to me.

711

:

And I let, and that's, I

appreciate the sentiment.

712

:

But, like, from an executive

planning standpoint, right?

713

:

Like, that's not something I

could write into my plan here.

714

:

Like.

715

:

Well, and where does that leave you

when you're the one that's going to be

716

:

making that, I mean, depending on what

his status is, you're going to be making

717

:

a significant portion of that decision,

or at least providing, you know, a

718

:

listening ear for him to, if he's going

to be making that decision, but where

719

:

does that leave, leave you, you know,

as far as a multiple choice, you know,

720

:

answers in life, that's not one of them.

721

:

We, we, we can, we can hope that

that is how it is and there's some

722

:

beautiful ending, you know, maybe

it's in a hot air balloon, but yes,

723

:

you know, yes, but realistically

you don't get to choose that.

724

:

So if that's not the case, then

what is a step by step plan for

725

:

yourself, but also your loved ones.

726

:

Um, because you know, when these things

happen, like I said, let's say we need a,

727

:

your Medicare days run out and you need to

qualify for a Medicaid bed, but you still

728

:

have assets, you know, none of that's

going to happen overnight or, you know,

729

:

on a Saturday when these things typically

need to happen, there's no lawyer on call

730

:

or whoever to help you figure it out.

731

:

So I think it's important to

have those conversations ahead of

732

:

time as best as you can, right?

733

:

Right.

734

:

Cause it's not easy.

735

:

I wish it was.

736

:

No, no, but it's like, you know,

it's at some point if we take the

737

:

emotion, the emotions are strong.

738

:

At the end of it, it's, it's just

like you're planning anything else.

739

:

And, and I, and it's almost like we

have to use a different part of our

740

:

brain and we're like, Oh wait, but this

is about my parents and mortality, and

741

:

that makes me question my own mortality.

742

:

So then I know when to do it.

743

:

And, and the thing is, if it's still

about serving your family and still

744

:

about showing up for them, even when

you can't, I mean, how awesome is that?

745

:

So it was David and I go

through and write this estate.

746

:

It's my opportunity to show up for my

own children when I can't, like, that's

747

:

like, to me, like a double win, right?

748

:

Because that's the best it survives.

749

:

Right.

750

:

I mean, it does survives.

751

:

Yeah.

752

:

And that's certainly how we look at

it too, when it comes to our own.

753

:

Daughters making sure she set up for

success, but also her guardians in the

754

:

middle of this, you know, difficult

process, heaven forbid, there's at

755

:

least 1 less thing for them to have to

worry about or fight or whatever it is.

756

:

Um, so setting all of them up.

757

:

As best as we can as a gift

that lives on without us.

758

:

Right.

759

:

Um, so you're right.

760

:

It's not just, you know, an ageist thing,

so to speak, which I think my parents also

761

:

think I'm calling them old when I, when

I bring this up, they're mid to late 60s.

762

:

So in my mind, they are by

no means in that category.

763

:

However, being in rehab, you

know, catastrophic events.

764

:

don't have an age bias.

765

:

Right, right.

766

:

And I've mentioned this before,

but I mean, you and I have both

767

:

seen even people in their 60s or

70s turn around and take care of.

768

:

A car, you know, a child or something that

has been, uh, involved with that, man,

769

:

this is, I, I, I don't want this podcast

to get a reputation is too depressing,

770

:

but I think it's really important.

771

:

Um, and I, and I want to make sure that

it, you know, it stays a conversation

772

:

and, um, and, and you engaging with me

like this is perfect and exactly what,

773

:

um, I hope to be putting out there.

774

:

So, um, before we wrap up here, any.

775

:

Other lingering, um, tidbits or insights

or lessons learned from your standpoint?

776

:

Not yet.

777

:

I mean, I'll, I'll be curious to see

what lessons I and tidbits and pearls

778

:

I have as we go through this process.

779

:

I admit it's a little daunting for myself

of, you know, like I said, none of this

780

:

is going to be solved in an afternoon.

781

:

Um, but I, I look forward to

being able to at least have these

782

:

conversations with our family members.

783

:

And I, I think, uh, You know, hopefully

a hidden benefit with it would be, you

784

:

know, we're already close, but getting

closer with them and in that process,

785

:

you know, maybe kind of learn some things

about each other, but yeah, no, I just

786

:

thank you for bringing these topics to

light and providing this, these podcasts,

787

:

I think it's a very, very much needed

area that needs a lot of attention.

788

:

I appreciate that.

789

:

And you made me think of one more thing,

which is, um, You know, as I'm kind of

790

:

speaking out of it as a septic process,

like you're just kind of create these

791

:

documents and you get them signed and

you work this out, I do think there's

792

:

some value to your future self that's

going to go through the loss of a parent.

793

:

Um, likely just the way that lifespans

are of, of introducing this to your brain.

794

:

Like this is a very kind introduction

to, um, acknowledge what, what is

795

:

real and what is natural and what

is around every human for all of

796

:

millennia in the history of humans.

797

:

And, and something about bringing my brain

into that space as uncomfortable as it is.

798

:

Um, Is part of the beginning of that

transition process for myself as well.

799

:

Right.

800

:

And I, I've never been one that wanted

to just sort of live, you know, with,

801

:

with my head too far in the sand.

802

:

And so I'm probably talking about

this topic because it is one of

803

:

the scariest things for me, um,

being very close to my parents and

804

:

living with my own grandmother.

805

:

And so I always have this

sense, like, you know, this.

806

:

This is going, this is a, this is in

the future and I'm almost relating to

807

:

my future self and reassuring her and

preparing her, um, in my own way too.

808

:

And that's where I think a lot of this

comes from because of the shock that you

809

:

and I see when this happens and it was

obviously understandably very clear that

810

:

Nobody ever thought this could happen.

811

:

And then we see this happen hundreds

or thousands of times in rehab.

812

:

Um, and so it's me watching that

thinking of myself there and thinking,

813

:

okay, well, she's going to be

standing at some bedside somewhere.

814

:

And I want to take care of her too.

815

:

And I want her to feel like this

is, um, the last thing she's going

816

:

to need is some paperwork headache.

817

:

Yeah.

818

:

So, um, anyway, so that

made me think of that.

819

:

Yeah.

820

:

So ultimately this is all very selfish.

821

:

I'll just put that out there.

822

:

Um, but the idea is that there can't

be just me that's in this boat.

823

:

And so when I first thought of this

and we talked about it some time ago,

824

:

um, it was very helpful for you to be

so open and to share because I knew

825

:

I'm not, I know I'm not the only one.

826

:

Um, No, definitely.

827

:

No, definitely not.

828

:

So I said, I appreciate you doing this.

829

:

I think it'll, it'll

help many, many people.

830

:

Well, Brittany, I hope to have you

back on at some point and I'd love

831

:

to continue the conversation and

very jealous of the weather, but, um,

832

:

I'd love to see you at some point.

833

:

I know it's so beautiful up there and, and

I hope you have a good rest of your day.

834

:

Thanks.

835

:

You too, Rebecca.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Real conversations about aging parents
Real conversations about aging parents

Listen for free

About your host

Profile picture for Rebecca Tapia

Rebecca Tapia