Episode 7
Anne: Mom pressuring physician daughter to move back home
Welcome!
In this episode we talk about pressure to move across the country to be located near an aging parent. It's a complex decision, one which requires to dig deep and examine your reasons and thought process.
Tip & spoiler alert - an eternally unhappy person will not suddenly become happier when you relocate geographically closer. Can't wait for you to listen!
Caveats:
- This is a judgement free zone
- There are no "shoulds" allowed, we live in curiosity
- Take what works well for you, leave the rest!
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If you would like to dig deeper - check out my upcoming course and join the waitlist.
Rebecca
Disclaimer: The information presented on this podcast is solely for information purposes. We do not provide medical, legal, financial, or other professional advice through this podcast and we are not responsible for any errors or omissions. It is your responsibility to seek advice from a licensed professional. Any actions you take are done at your own risk.
Transcript
Thank you everyone for joining us.
Speaker:I have a special guest for us today.
Speaker:Um, I'm actually at a conference for physicians and I came across Anne.
Speaker:She's been really, really generous with her time and has been willing
Speaker:to come and talk to us about her experiences with her mom.
Speaker:Hi Anne.
Speaker:Welcome to the show.
Speaker:Hi.
Speaker:Thank you, Rebecca.
Speaker:Your, um, area of concentration is so important.
Speaker:Um, so many of us have our aging parents and kind of issues with that.
Speaker:So thank you so much for covering this.
Speaker:We are only here because you might have some issues with an aging parent.
Speaker:So before we get started into that, just tell us a little bit back about your
Speaker:background, professional background, and um, maybe some hobbies that you have.
Speaker:Yeah, so I am an academic radiologist.
Speaker:Um, I've been practicing for about 13 years and, um, uh, I live in Chicago,
Speaker:um, and I've also personally started, um, doing some coaching as well.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:Good, good.
Speaker:So we're gonna just step through, um, your course with your, and
Speaker:this is your, your mother, right?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:The aging parent.
Speaker:Um, so I usually like to start with, um, at what point did you feel like she might
Speaker:need some extra attention or extra care?
Speaker:Like, there's probably a time where it didn't really enter
Speaker:your mind and, and now it is.
Speaker:Can you just kind of give us a thumbnail sketch of, of what you're going through,
Speaker:what you're dealing with, with your mom?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So my father passed away, um, almost 15 years ago, and.
Speaker:My mother wasn't really that old at the time.
Speaker:I think she was like in her mid sixties, but she needed a lot
Speaker:of support after that happened.
Speaker:Um, and so now it's been fif it's 15 years later and she's still
Speaker:pretty independent, but it does seem like she's needing more help.
Speaker:She fell at home.
Speaker:Um, She's been thinking about going to one of those retirement communities,
Speaker:but she's very indecisive about going and also understandably doesn't
Speaker:really wanna leave the home either.
Speaker:So that's what's been a struggle.
Speaker:And I guess in addition, um, she's got expectations that
Speaker:her children move by her.
Speaker:And I think it's maybe cultural because we're Asian.
Speaker:Um, Um, and she's got the ideas that her children should move by her.
Speaker:So, uh, it's a lot of pressure on the kids because none of us live by her.
Speaker:And I've got two younger sisters.
Speaker:And where does she live?
Speaker:Or what part of the country?
Speaker:Like East coast, west Coast?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:She's in Southern California.
Speaker:Oh, so that's far.
Speaker:You're in Chicago, so that's not Yeah.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Anywhere.
Speaker:Um, so tell me about that.
Speaker:So when you think there's sort of an unspoken role that you would move to
Speaker:be with her, has it actually come up?
Speaker:Has she asked you to move to California?
Speaker:Uh, she doesn't ask, but there's just guilt trips.
Speaker:Tell me about it.
Speaker:Give me, gimme an example of a guilt trip.
Speaker:Like, oh, I went to my doctor and I complained to them that
Speaker:none of my kids are here with me.
Speaker:I'm all alone, and, oh.
Speaker:And she lives on her own there.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So she doesn't have anybody living with her or No family.
Speaker:She's got a lot of friends.
Speaker:She's pretty social and she's well connected with her church friends.
Speaker:But yeah, and then she recruits her friends and family to also guilt
Speaker:trip us into moving by her too.
Speaker:Like then my aunt say like, oh, you should move by your mom, and yeah.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:Has it ever come up that.
Speaker:That she should move closer to one of you.
Speaker:You said you had two younger siblings, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So she's been considering that, but she loves the weather in Southern
Speaker:California and she loves, uh, the familiarity of where she is and
Speaker:the doctors that she has there.
Speaker:So she doesn't really wanna up and move to an area that has worse weather.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So that kind of rules out, that rules out Chicago, I'm gonna
Speaker:have to say that out loud.
Speaker:Just cause of the winters, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And then my other sister is in London, so that, oh, that's, seems a little
Speaker:too daunting for her to move there.
Speaker:Um, even though, uh, my sister just had a baby and then my other sister lives
Speaker:in Arizona and so she's considered that, but she thinks it's too hot there.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, uh, does she require, like any in-home assistance, does she need
Speaker:help with like any of her ADLs?
Speaker:Is she pretty mobile?
Speaker:Is she driving?
Speaker:Yeah, so she's Dr.
Speaker:She's driving just like around town so she can go to the grocery store, but
Speaker:she doesn't feel comfortable driving like on the freeway, really longer
Speaker:distances where most of her doctors are, uh, because she tends to get sleepy.
Speaker:Um, And yeah, she's pretty independent around the house.
Speaker:Like she really probably shouldn't be doing a lot of things like
Speaker:lifting things because of her bad back, but she does it anyways.
Speaker:So when she thinks that her children should move closer to her, when
Speaker:you hear that or when you feel that kind of pressure, are you thinking
Speaker:that would be a social thing?
Speaker:Like you would move closer, um, to give her more.
Speaker:It sounds like she has family and friends that live with her.
Speaker:I mean live, I'm sorry, live in that area.
Speaker:So are you thinking this is, so you could go to the doctor with her, like
Speaker:does she just want companionship?
Speaker:Is it a control thing?
Speaker:Can you tell?
Speaker:I mean, I think she wants me to be able to drive her around, and I think
Speaker:that actually a big part of it is that she's told me this too, that.
Speaker:She feels like if none of us move there, it means that she's a bad person.
Speaker:Ooh.
Speaker:So it's kind of, that's kind of juicy.
Speaker:Tell me about this.
Speaker:So she thinks that it's a, like a, a sign of disrespect or a sign of being
Speaker:uncaring if her children don't move back.
Speaker:Now is that your hometown as well?
Speaker:That area?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I grew up there, um, but I haven't lived there for like 30 years.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So is this something she actually says out loud?
Speaker:Like, if you don't come live with me, that means I'm a bad person?
Speaker:Or how do you Ur Yes.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:She does that.
Speaker:She says that out out loud.
Speaker:She says that, yep.
Speaker:That if she ends up moving towards one of us or elsewhere,
Speaker:it means that she's a bad person.
Speaker:And, um, yeah.
Speaker:Where, where do you, where do you think she get, is this a, a common
Speaker:thing in other parts of your family?
Speaker:It's like, do you have aunts that feel the same way about their kids?
Speaker:Um, actually my aunts, her sisters are different from her.
Speaker:Like they're kind of very independent and they really don't want their kids,
Speaker:um, to do things like that for them.
Speaker:Like, but then again they have kind of more like more boys.
Speaker:So I don't know if the expectations are different.
Speaker:Um, I think that because my mom dedicated her whole life to family, and maybe
Speaker:she didn't have anything outside of that, that that's her expectation.
Speaker:I'm not sure actually where she got that from.
Speaker:That's, that's a good question.
Speaker:What about her own mother are, and maybe this is before your time,
Speaker:but how, how did that go with your mother, your maternal grandmother?
Speaker:Was that an expectation that she had?
Speaker:Are you aware of any sort of like hereditary expectations that.
Speaker:There, like her mother had that expectation.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:She talks about that actually that her mother who had eight children, um,
Speaker:told her basically like, you have your own life, so don't worry about me.
Speaker:But then again, her mother had basically, I think five or six of her
Speaker:children in the same town with her.
Speaker:Um, and her mother ended up living with one of my aunts to help
Speaker:with childcare, so it wasn't an issue that she was by herself.
Speaker:I see.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:How do you feel, like, what thoughts come up in your head when you're, it
Speaker:sounds like your mom can be pretty direct saying, you know, I really want one
Speaker:of you to, to move back to California.
Speaker:Like, how do you handle that?
Speaker:What, what goes on?
Speaker:How do you process that?
Speaker:Yeah, there's a lot of resentment.
Speaker:And actually I'm in the process of looking for a house by her, which I have a lot
Speaker:of Well, you are mixed feelings about.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, yeah, so my husband also wants to move to the area because
Speaker:it's closer to his family.
Speaker:Although it's, it's not as close as we're gonna be moving closer to my mom.
Speaker:So, That's one other thing.
Speaker:And I've had a lot of conflicted feelings too, like I've been wanting to move
Speaker:because right now I am not working, so I don't have anything holding me in Chicago.
Speaker:And, uh, me and my husband have been talking about moving to the
Speaker:West coast to be closer to family.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:What, what percent of that decision with your husband was your mom's pressure?
Speaker:To move?
Speaker:Is it like 5%?
Speaker:Is it 50%?
Speaker:Like if she had never said anything about y'all moving, do you think you'd still be
Speaker:moving for his purposes or other reasons?
Speaker:Um, probably if she didn't, well, if she didn't say anything, I might still
Speaker:have kind of like the Phil guilt that I should be closer to her if she, if
Speaker:she was all by kind of without family.
Speaker:Where she is.
Speaker:So yeah, I probably still would, even if she didn't say anything, but I
Speaker:probably would feel better about it.
Speaker:I wouldn't feel as kind of resentful and so does the resentment.
Speaker:And I think that's a really powerful word.
Speaker:I think it's one of the most powerful emotions in relationships.
Speaker:Um, is the resentment that you'd rather move electively because you want to be
Speaker:there, but now that she's created the expectation and you happen to be filling
Speaker:the expectation, you're resentful that she created the expectation to begin with or.
Speaker:Is it something different?
Speaker:Like where do, if you had to like dig a little bit deeper into the resentment?
Speaker:No, I think you're right.
Speaker:I think it ju it is based on her creating the expectation.
Speaker:And so when you actually think about being closer to her, how do you feel about that?
Speaker:How does she treat you?
Speaker:How is that relationship?
Speaker:Is it, um, a positive relationship?
Speaker:Is she interested in your wellbeing?
Speaker:Um, what does that look like?
Speaker:So I think since Covid she's changed as well.
Speaker:I think that it's been difficult on her just being by herself really like
Speaker:isolated for at least a year until like I, I actually went and saw her.
Speaker:Um, so she used to be a lot more caring about like what was going on with us.
Speaker:But right now I feel like it's more kind of mostly about her.
Speaker:So what do you think that will look like if you're spending, uh, if you're closer
Speaker:in proximity to her geographically, what will change day to day?
Speaker:Do you feel like there's gonna be a weekly dinner, you're gonna get a
Speaker:phone call that she needs a ride to?
Speaker:The doctor is like, you know, what layers of expectations are you thinking are
Speaker:gonna start that aren't here right now because you live in a different state?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like I've given it some thought and definitely I'm gonna have.
Speaker:F to have boundaries, which I've kind of already started instituting a little bit.
Speaker:Um, but I think like the weekly dinner, um, has been brought up and
Speaker:that's a great idea where it's kind of a limited amount of time where it's
Speaker:expected and then we kind of go home.
Speaker:Um, and then I'm sure that she's gonna want me to drive her to doctor's,
Speaker:uh, visits and things like that.
Speaker:So I'll do that as well.
Speaker:But definitely I'm gonna.
Speaker:Put some boundaries so that it's not like all the time, anytime.
Speaker:So let's talk about those boundaries.
Speaker:What do you think those look like?
Speaker:Let, let's just say, let's just pick two of 'em.
Speaker:Um, what is one that's kind of top of mind for you?
Speaker:You mentioned like a time limited dinner.
Speaker:Um, but what are some other boundaries that are coming up that you feel
Speaker:like you're will be healthy to have in place before you move?
Speaker:Um,
Speaker:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker:I mean, I've already started, I think with the boundaries because
Speaker:coaching has helped me kind of, um, create more boundaries for myself.
Speaker:Whereas before I didn't.
Speaker:I think when she asks for help, which she's the type of person who asks
Speaker:everyone for help anytime, I would always just say yes, and now I'm, I'm.
Speaker:Giving it some more thought.
Speaker:Um, and I find that it's helping me for sure.
Speaker:Instead of just jumping to.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And how do you do that in real life?
Speaker:Like can, like what's a practical example of, you know, Hey, I need you
Speaker:to go take me to get groceries and then go to this doctor's appointment
Speaker:and it's gonna take six hours.
Speaker:Like, what's the next step in that boundary that is not people
Speaker:pleasing, but that's authentic?
Speaker:Like, what does that look like for you?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean I think like once a week driving to an appointment
Speaker:or something, definitely.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Maybe twice a week.
Speaker:And I think more than that will be kind of like only on an emergent or
Speaker:exceptional basis, I'll probably set that kind of boundary for the rides.
Speaker:Um, I'm also trying to hire somebody to actually help with the driving so that
Speaker:I'm not just the Uber driver all the time.
Speaker:Um, and like for an example last time at her house, like she is kind
Speaker:of very obsessive and, and she's actually pretty good at doing like
Speaker:things like her taxes, like she was adding up her medical expenses.
Speaker:For the whole year and sh just manually on a piece of paper.
Speaker:And she asked me to show her how to make it into a spreadsheet so that when
Speaker:she was adding it on, she didn't have to manually recalculate everything.
Speaker:And so I thought, okay, I can show her that.
Speaker:And then when I went to do that, she said, oh, can you just do it for me?
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:And it was pages and pages.
Speaker:So I, I gave her some pushback in that.
Speaker:Like I said, oh, what you want me to do the whole thing for you?
Speaker:And then she said, well, Like, I think the old me would've just
Speaker:been like, okay, I'll just do it and then just be upset about it.
Speaker:So you mentioned, uh, maybe hiring somebody to decrease the, the driving
Speaker:burden, but she is driving now.
Speaker:So is that anticipating that once you arrive she would drive even less
Speaker:because you were available and then you would supply some other driver to Yeah.
Speaker:Do that.
Speaker:I guess that could be kind of an unrealistic expectation if I'm
Speaker:there that like I should be driving.
Speaker:So, I mean, at least she can drive around town right now, and it's really
Speaker:for like trips that are maybe over like 20 or 30 minutes that she really
Speaker:doesn't feel comfortable driving.
Speaker:Um, so sh because she doesn't wanna spend money, that's another reason why.
Speaker:So instead of hiring, Uber, like, she'll take like, um, the train and
Speaker:then a bus and then like complain about how difficult that is for her
Speaker:having to walk and everything and how she doesn't wanna spend the money.
Speaker:So I found someone actually that, um, she already picked her up from the
Speaker:airport and she also does other services.
Speaker:Um, and so if she can find somebody that she can trust,
Speaker:that's another thing is that trust.
Speaker:She doesn't trust like the uber Dr.
Speaker:Like a random Uber driver.
Speaker:So, If I can get this person maybe in place, that'll help kind
Speaker:of take the burden off of me.
Speaker:So you don't even have the burden yet though, cause you don't,
Speaker:you don't live there yet, right?
Speaker:Yeah, I, I guess I feel kind of like, I still have it since I visit
Speaker:her, like pretty frequently, like maybe every two to three months.
Speaker:And then when I visit, I'm usually there like seven to 10 days.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And um, so that's a preview you've had a preview Yeah.
Speaker:Of what it would look like.
Speaker:Um, now I know you said you have a background or at least a personal
Speaker:interest in personal finance.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And you mentioned that you would hire the Uber driver partially because
Speaker:she's averse to spending money.
Speaker:But how does that work in the determination of whose
Speaker:resources go towards convenience?
Speaker:So it's more convenient for her.
Speaker:To have a driver than for her to drive.
Speaker:It's more convenient because she wants to avoid, you know, strangers and
Speaker:those, and so you're, you know, you're, you're accommodating some of these
Speaker:preferences or fears that she has.
Speaker:Uh, so how does it come up to your brain that you would be the one to pay for them
Speaker:and not, for instance, ask her to pay for it or your siblings to help pay for it?
Speaker:Um, is that just out of simplicity so you don't have to have the difficult
Speaker:conversations, or do you feel like you're.
Speaker:Personally liable for her transportation costs?
Speaker:Um, well, my sister or does she not have, like, like are you like sincerely, like,
Speaker:okay, well she doesn't have the $15 to No.
Speaker:Get from A to B, or, she definitely has the money and, um, we visited with
Speaker:the accountant before just to confirm that she has enough money to go into
Speaker:one of the retirement communities, but.
Speaker:She's just has this mindset that she never has enough.
Speaker:And I just know how difficult that is.
Speaker:And it's kind of a conversation that's a losing conversation.
Speaker:So, I mean, I have the means and like a hundred dollars here and
Speaker:there really is not gonna make a big difference in my life, but it might
Speaker:make a big difference in my like, um, in just having someone to help.
Speaker:So for me, I think it's worth it.
Speaker:And so, I mean, she has money and yeah, it would be nice if she was
Speaker:able to spend her own money now just to make things more convenient
Speaker:for her and maybe for me as well.
Speaker:But, um, I mean, as long as all the resources aren't all consumed
Speaker:by medical expenses or something like it's left for us anyway, so.
Speaker:I figure.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So when, when push comes to shove, if she needed an assisted living, so she
Speaker:needed some support with like showering, dressing, those types of things,
Speaker:for whatever reason, um, what do you anticipate that conversation looks like?
Speaker:Cuz that's another expenditure, that's a change in scenery.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Um, and then what, what often happens is now that an adult child is co-located
Speaker:in the same city, the assumption.
Speaker:Or one of the presumptions maybe, is that the adult child would move in
Speaker:with the parent, or the parent would move in with the adult child, and
Speaker:some of that is cultural as well.
Speaker:So I know that you're not at that point, but if that's crossed your
Speaker:mind, like how do you think about that?
Speaker:Yeah, the assumption was that she was gonna move to a retirement community.
Speaker:So yeah, I hadn't, the thought hadn't crossed my mind that
Speaker:she was gonna move in with me.
Speaker:Um, and then if she moved into a retirement community, she's been
Speaker:very proactive about asking them the details and also dragging me along to
Speaker:a lot of these retirement home visits.
Speaker:So I kind of have a gist of how it works.
Speaker:Like, I guess if you need the additional help you can pay
Speaker:for it out of, uh, pocket.
Speaker:Or if they determine that those retirement homes that you need,
Speaker:like an additional level of care, they can put you in there too.
Speaker:So, um, but that's probably something.
Speaker:Good to think about.
Speaker:I mean, I think if she needs to hire someone for bathing help and things like
Speaker:that, then I think she would be more, I mean, I'm hoping that she'll be willing
Speaker:to pay for that if the time comes.
Speaker:Are there any considerations for, is she an extremely private person?
Speaker:Like if she did need help bathing or something like
Speaker:that, that she would prefer?
Speaker:That was a non-family, so, so it goes both ways.
Speaker:It's like, no, it can't be a stranger.
Speaker:It has to be my daughter cuz the only person who can help me get dressed is.
Speaker:A family member.
Speaker:And then I've also seen it to where it can't be my daughter,
Speaker:it can't be my family.
Speaker:It has to be a caretaker, a hired caretaker.
Speaker:Um, and maybe it's too early to tell, but can you see her having a strong
Speaker:preference, either if she did need personal care that it come from a
Speaker:hired person or from a family member?
Speaker:I think she'd be okay with a hired person.
Speaker:I don't think that she would really want a family member to do that kind of thing.
Speaker:At least she, that's not something that she's brought up.
Speaker:Like she definitely brings up that she wants a family member to be in the
Speaker:same town as her or in the same area.
Speaker:But yeah.
Speaker:So with your two siblings, what are these conversations like?
Speaker:Are they relieved that you're moving there?
Speaker:So quote unquote, they don't have to.
Speaker:Is it like, are you taking one for the team?
Speaker:Are you moving cuz you're super excited to get back to California
Speaker:and see your mom more like.
Speaker:What is the sentiment?
Speaker:The overall sentiment about that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In your family.
Speaker:So the relationship with my youngest sister and my mother is pretty
Speaker:strained because my mother doesn't approve of her husband and makes
Speaker:it clear to my younger sister.
Speaker:And so my younger sister, my youngest sister, she feels really pretty
Speaker:guilty about not seeing my mom.
Speaker:I don't think she's.
Speaker:Come out to see her even a year before Covid just, she just can't do it.
Speaker:It's, she's difficult.
Speaker:And so she's grateful.
Speaker:At least she's expressed that she's grateful to me that I
Speaker:do actually go and see her.
Speaker:And so I made a, I made a small pact with that sister.
Speaker:I said, okay, well I'm helping her now, but the burden of like,
Speaker:because my mom is a hoarder.
Speaker:The burden of having to take care of all the stuff in the house, like
Speaker:when it needs, when time comes.
Speaker:I told her that she can take care of that.
Speaker:Oh, she said yes because, because she thinks it's, it's gonna be a long time
Speaker:away, but I mean, hopefully it will be.
Speaker:But we, we don't know.
Speaker:And your mom is in her seventies or eighties?
Speaker:Seventies.
Speaker:Seventies?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And what about the middle sister?
Speaker:So she's in London.
Speaker:Oh, that's right.
Speaker:She just had a baby and, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, that's.
Speaker:That's farther away.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So, uh, I'm gonna ask you, this is maybe an unfair question.
Speaker:Um, when you talk about this move and being closer to proximity to your mom and,
Speaker:and these things, it sounds as if you're talking almost like a dental procedure.
Speaker:Like, and, um, you know, and, and it, it's, it's matter of fact.
Speaker:It's like this is what I'm going to do.
Speaker:I want to really take away.
Speaker:You know, the, the, the, like you said, some of the cultural expectations
Speaker:or what she's actually said.
Speaker:And if we could just lift that off, like what do you truly think is happening?
Speaker:Um, what is the real, like with the ID inside your brain,
Speaker:how does it feel about this?
Speaker:What is it saying?
Speaker:Um, it's probably screaming in horror.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:To be honest.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Don't, okay.
Speaker:I'm glad we got that far.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Tell me about this.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, just.
Speaker:What is it?
Speaker:Is it leaving Chicago because you love Chicago?
Speaker:Is it screaming and horror because this is a difficult person for you and
Speaker:you're gonna have a higher exposure?
Speaker:Um, what are some of the elements of that?
Speaker:Yeah, it's more that she's a pretty difficult person to get along with.
Speaker:Um, I think, well, my sisters both definitely agree, and so just having
Speaker:to be more exposed to that, that.
Speaker:I think the feeling of horror and yeah.
Speaker:So what's the worst that would happen if you just didn't?
Speaker:Um, well, I mean, I'm not there now and she's been bringing this up for at least
Speaker:10 years and I haven't done anything.
Speaker:So what's the worst that could happen?
Speaker:I guess if like something happened to her and nobody found out for days, I guess
Speaker:that would be the worst that would happen.
Speaker:But I guess I, so I mean, like to you.
Speaker:It.
Speaker:It would be if we just said, okay, this isn't gonna work, and there weren't
Speaker:other reasons to move to California, or you and your husband decided, you
Speaker:know, whatever reason you wanted to stay in Chicago, that the worst that
Speaker:would happen is a feeling of the guilt that you feel from the way that she
Speaker:talks to you, and then the resentment.
Speaker:And so if you move, you might feel a little bit less guilt,
Speaker:but the resentment will probably take over for that part of it.
Speaker:Because now you'll have a lot of executive management.
Speaker:So anytime you talk about doing transportation, you know, appointments,
Speaker:meals, anything like that, the executive management of that goes much,
Speaker:much higher than if you were remote.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So then there's the, hey, that person didn't show up on time or
Speaker:their car smelled bad or whatever.
Speaker:Um, and so that's a significant time expenditure as well.
Speaker:So, um, do you see it as just sort of changing the balance of right
Speaker:now you feel really guilty and.
Speaker:A little resentful and you'll go and you'll feel less guilty,
Speaker:but more resentful, like, do you see any gain in your overall
Speaker:wellbeing to, to make this move?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, in, for myself, I think because, well we're, we're
Speaker:trying to buy a house right now.
Speaker:We're in a small two bedroom condo, so if we can actually get the house
Speaker:there, I think that'll be nice.
Speaker:I mean, it'll be too much space for us in a way, but.
Speaker:It'll be kind of a nice change.
Speaker:So I think I do wanna change, um, from Chicago.
Speaker:So I think it'll be nice in that way.
Speaker:I, so I kind of wanna change and I don't like change in general, so it, that's,
Speaker:it's kind of pulling me both ways.
Speaker:Um, and then for sure the winters are better there, so
Speaker:I'll be able to go outside and do things outside in the winter.
Speaker:Um, so.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, um, do you have a stop gap like once you get there, other
Speaker:than, um, the boundaries you're talking about putting in place?
Speaker:Like who's looking out for your experience?
Speaker:So if your mom isn't someone who can check in with you and say, Hey, I
Speaker:know this is a lot and you have other ambitions, you have other things going
Speaker:on, and if she doesn't, and correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't sound like
Speaker:somebody who's gonna keep tabs on sort of.
Speaker:Of your attention or energy expenditure for her, is that going to be you or
Speaker:your spouse or do you have someone like who monitors Anne's expenditure for
Speaker:this process to make sure it doesn't, uh, that it still honors your other,
Speaker:the life that you have to live, I mean, you're young and moving to California
Speaker:and get to do more things and set up a house and do things that you want to do.
Speaker:Do you feel like you can be the manager of that?
Speaker:Do you feel like you're in a place where you are, be aware of that or
Speaker:do you rely on other people to tell you, hey, like this is getting outta
Speaker:hand, or this is having a negative effect on your mood, things like that.
Speaker:Yeah, those are good questions.
Speaker:Um, I think for sure that's good that you bring it up.
Speaker:I will have to be really aware of that.
Speaker:Um, so I think.
Speaker:Probably I'll take, I'll try and take primary responsibility for
Speaker:that, but certainly I think my husband will bring it up too if
Speaker:he sees things are not going well.
Speaker:Um, I mean, he's already used to right now just helping me decompress from my mom.
Speaker:Um, so I think he'll be able, he'll be a good person as well to help with that.
Speaker:Um, I, I talk to a therapist as well and, um, coaches.
Speaker:So hopefully they will also be able to help.
Speaker:And when you say decompress, so he helps you decompress.
Speaker:What are the top three things you're decompressing from?
Speaker:From?
Speaker:Is it, is it judgment?
Speaker:Is it, um, pressure?
Speaker:Is it like the physical space?
Speaker:You mentioned she was hor a hoarder, which a lot of people when they're
Speaker:in that space can already just feel.
Speaker:Compressed by the space itself.
Speaker:So what do you decompress from after you spend time with her?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think it's like when we get into arguments, and a lot of it is about the
Speaker:hoarding because like you mentioned, it's just, it just feels very
Speaker:uncomfortable whenever at her house.
Speaker:Um, So, yeah, I'll usually decompress to him and say like, oh, we had a fight
Speaker:about this today, and he's usually pretty, kind of reasonable to bounce
Speaker:things off of and helps me feel better.
Speaker:Um, I think that's one reason why.
Speaker:So we decided to move closer to her instead of his parents,
Speaker:um, because it's just harder.
Speaker:Like if we didn't have our own place, we'd probably stay with her or I
Speaker:would stay with her when I was there.
Speaker:And it's just harder to stay with her because of all of the stuff.
Speaker:Like, it just really gets to me.
Speaker:And so it's kind of easier to have our own place nearby and then
Speaker:just have a place to go back to.
Speaker:Um, another unfair question, which is, I, I usually ask people if we were
Speaker:to think of a spectrum, um, of say zero to 10, and I'll start with 10.
Speaker:So 10 is.
Speaker:An adult child that basically idolizes their parents.
Speaker:They're heavily attached.
Speaker:They have pull out all the stops.
Speaker:Nothing can be good enough.
Speaker:I mean, I mean, as far as every resource that can be expended to, uh,
Speaker:you know, make this parent extremely comfortable and accommodated.
Speaker:And then zero is, this is very transactional.
Speaker:This is apparent that was not available.
Speaker:It's not warm, it's not reciprocating.
Speaker:Affection is not really interested in my life, but they're a parent.
Speaker:They're genetically apparent to me, and I have a construct in my brain that says,
Speaker:because they're apparent then X, Y, Z.
Speaker:Um, where are you on the spectrum of zero to 10, zero being, this
Speaker:is a very obligatory thing to do.
Speaker:Um, and then 10 is I'm an honored to be able to do this for this parent.
Speaker:I mean, I might say four or five.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So kind of leaning towards the feels a little bit more like an
Speaker:obligation than something that you're Yeah, maybe even three.
Speaker:A three maybe if we keep talking, you know, you just say
Speaker:wedge down to a two or a one.
Speaker:Um, so in, in the course of, uh, working with her and, and.
Speaker:Uh, you've mentioned a couple times that you find her difficult.
Speaker:Can you just gimme a little bit more context to what feels difficult?
Speaker:And you mentioned the hoarding and then it sounds like she's disapproving of your
Speaker:brother-in-law and that, that that's hard.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So, um, what other things do you feel like are the most draining?
Speaker:Yeah, like, I think like, so she's very blunt and not emotionally kind of.
Speaker:Connected or intuitive.
Speaker:So she'll say things that are just hurtful and then, um, and then she
Speaker:doesn't feel like she needs to apologize either, and then it's just defensiveness.
Speaker:So, um, Um, like my therapist actually recommended a book that I read called The
Speaker:Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.
Speaker:Oh my gosh.
Speaker:And actually when I, I mean, when I read the book, like
Speaker:actually I was like, oh, wow.
Speaker:Like, I mean, sh my mom is not as bad as for sure, like a lot of the people
Speaker:in the book, but I could see parts of it and then I, I understood better.
Speaker:And then like from the book, I.
Speaker:My last visit, I didn't have the expectation from her to be kind of
Speaker:like emotionally mature or connected or like ask about me, things like that.
Speaker:And I, I felt much better just kind of modifying my expectation.
Speaker:So I think that's a big part of it, just like kind of the emotional
Speaker:callousness, like, um, like when I was.
Speaker:I got married last year and I, I mentioned on our family phone call
Speaker:that I was worried because while the alterations people made my dress
Speaker:too tight, so I had to kind of lose weight to actually fit into it, which
Speaker:was definitely not a good situation.
Speaker:And I said, I was worried about like, you know, not fitting in the
Speaker:dress and then she like laughed.
Speaker:So just kind of like inappropriate things like that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That are hurtful.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:And then she's very paranoid too, um, like about money, about other people.
Speaker:Like she doesn't want my husband to, like, she's worried that he's
Speaker:like kind of taking advantage of me financially, even though like we
Speaker:make about the same amount of money.
Speaker:So there's always that, that that's kind of annoying about it.
Speaker:And so that's why she doesn't like my husband's, my sister's husband either.
Speaker:Are you, are you comfortable, um, sharing your cultural background or where you
Speaker:think some of this might come from?
Speaker:Yeah, so, um, I'm Chinese.
Speaker:My mom is from Hong Kong.
Speaker:My dad was from China.
Speaker:And I mean, maybe it's, maybe it's like, I'm not sure if
Speaker:it's an, it's an Asian thing.
Speaker:I know that.
Speaker:Or a Chinese thing.
Speaker:I know that I have another friend who I think she has a similar background as
Speaker:I do, and her mom is a little bit like that too in, well, in terms of hoarding.
Speaker:In terms of not being trusting of anyone, kind of outside the family.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm not sure.
Speaker:So you, you talked about this book and then changing your expectations,
Speaker:which was immediately helpful.
Speaker:So she did not have to change for you to feel better because you had
Speaker:a different mindset or expectation.
Speaker:And I know you've done, uh, coaching yourself.
Speaker:Um, you can you pull out like two or three tips or lessons learned.
Speaker:Like how you're navigating this relationship and this
Speaker:potential move in the future.
Speaker:Like if you were talking to somebody who's at the beginning of this, this
Speaker:guilt trip or this experience, um, do you have any advice for them or,
Speaker:or things that you'd like to share?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, the book was very enlightening to me.
Speaker:Um, like I had no idea that there was such a thing as emotionally I, immature,
Speaker:I mean, Parents or that actually I, my parent was like that, which I think it's
Speaker:actually pretty common because I feel like it's only kind of in more recent
Speaker:times that people are more kind of in tune with their emotions, especially parents.
Speaker:Um, so yeah, that was helpful.
Speaker:What else is helpful?
Speaker:I mean, I'm not sure I'm the greatest example cuz I'm actually
Speaker:giving into the parent who's been.
Speaker:Guilt tripping me about not moving closer to them and I'm actually doing it.
Speaker:But I mean, coaching for sure helps just coaching in therapy, just,
Speaker:um, examining your thoughts about situations and really just realizing
Speaker:that it's not the situation that's making you upset, it's your thoughts
Speaker:and that you can modify your thoughts.
Speaker:Like you don't have to believe all of the thoughts that.
Speaker:They come.
Speaker:How far away do you think you are from telling a different version
Speaker:of the story in which you're choosing to move to California?
Speaker:This is a positive thing.
Speaker:Um, and maybe again, we're talking about your mom, so it could be just
Speaker:contextual to this conversation, but how having done coaching yourself and,
Speaker:and worked with coaches before, Are you, do you have a goal of developing
Speaker:a different narrative about this move?
Speaker:Um, or is it right now, I'm, I'm, like you said, you used the word I'm
Speaker:giving in to my mom who made these demands and made me feel guilty, and
Speaker:now I'm responding to the guilt trip.
Speaker:Um, and maybe that's true for you, and maybe that is the, the story, but
Speaker:do you have it as a goal to create an, an equally true narrative that
Speaker:involves you and or your hus, your, your new husband, or, Like what?
Speaker:Where are you at right now with that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, like that's a great idea.
Speaker:I hadn't really thought about like purposefully like making the story so that
Speaker:it was more about me and kind of positive and why I'm doing it because it's true.
Speaker:Like that definitely changes your experience.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:Well, let's do it.
Speaker:There's no time like today, right?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I just met you today and you agreed to come talk to me and you don't.
Speaker:I think it's wonderful.
Speaker:So time, time is of the essence.
Speaker:So, um, let's think about this.
Speaker:Um, so you are moving with your new husband to start a new life in
Speaker:California, in a home located, in a place that has weather more conducive
Speaker:to outdoor activities which you enjoy, uh, more plugged into community.
Speaker:Conveniently closer to your mother, should she have needs that are
Speaker:difficult to fulfill from Chicago?
Speaker:I'm just giving us like a boiler plate.
Speaker:Yeah, no, that's great.
Speaker:But can we build on that just a little bit?
Speaker:We don't have to spend the whole time on that, but I, and I say
Speaker:that because I, I don't, I don't believe in gaslighting yourself.
Speaker:I don't believe in you're thinking, okay, this is, this is, um,
Speaker:a move because I feel guilty.
Speaker:I, I feel like in most of these situations there's multiple things
Speaker:that are equally true at the same time, and some of them feed my
Speaker:soul and some of them drain my soul depending on how I want to describe it.
Speaker:I felt that way about being a parent a lot.
Speaker:Um, I could tell you a lot of stories about being a parent that would
Speaker:make you think I was very resentful and felt guilted into doing certain
Speaker:things, and then I could turn around and tell you the exact same
Speaker:stories with different language.
Speaker:That would make you think that I was like an all star parent
Speaker:and I, that nothing was better.
Speaker:And it's in the way that I choose.
Speaker:All of it's true.
Speaker:I have children is true.
Speaker:You have a mom.
Speaker:That's true.
Speaker:Um, they have behaviors.
Speaker:Your mom has behaviors.
Speaker:But the agency, I feel is I get to decide what the narrative is
Speaker:and, but I still, but my criteria are, it still has to be true.
Speaker:So I'm not gonna say, oh, it was super wonderful raising multiples.
Speaker:I had twins eight years ago.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Oh, that was super fun.
Speaker:And like, I can't think of a better experience.
Speaker:I would never, I can't do that because it's too far and I don't want to
Speaker:ladder all the way over to that story.
Speaker:It's not authentic for me, it's not true for me.
Speaker:But I can find different rungs to the ladder that get me to a story
Speaker:that is true and a narrative that fits me or my value system, um,
Speaker:and feels better like a jacket.
Speaker:So I was thinking of them, like, I always think of thoughts as like clothes, right?
Speaker:And so I could put those clothes on, but they're either like too tight or they're
Speaker:like, Asymmetric, like something is weird with them and then it's all a closet.
Speaker:So my brain is a closet of different thoughts and I put on a different thought
Speaker:and I think, you know, yeah, that was a tough time, but wow, look how much I grew.
Speaker:Look how much I learned, look how much, whatever.
Speaker:Um, so if, if we applied that concept to what you are going through, and I
Speaker:want you to take everything we just talked about and put it up on the
Speaker:shelf and tell me again why you and your husband are moving to California.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, for sure.
Speaker:Let's see.
Speaker:I, so we're moving there because we wanna change and we want to live in California.
Speaker:We want to live closer to our parents and it makes us feel good
Speaker:to live closer to our parents.
Speaker:And how do you feel when you say that?
Speaker:I feel better.
Speaker:I might need a bridge thought for it, but, but no, definitely it's um, It's,
Speaker:it's definitely more, uh, positive and yeah, it's a definite, it's definitely,
Speaker:it's helpful for your outlook.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and I will say, um, you have to obviously practice these things, right?
Speaker:So you gotta try the clothes on before they fit in, you know, fit completely.
Speaker:You gotta break 'em in a little bit.
Speaker:And so, um, just because a thought feels a little stiff at first, I don't know that.
Speaker:We should put it back on the rack right away.
Speaker:Like sometimes you just have to wear the thought for a while and make
Speaker:sure it is authentic and true to you.
Speaker:But my brain and my body go along better when the narrative is something
Speaker:I get to create and I live into it.
Speaker:And, um, that feels different than what I believe we were talking about
Speaker:earlier, which is an external person, in this case, your mom setting
Speaker:the narrative and then you're.
Speaker:Following the narrative because that's the one they set.
Speaker:And that for me as well, and for most people, breeds resentment.
Speaker:Like, that's not my story, that's your story.
Speaker:That's not my agency.
Speaker:That's you deciding this.
Speaker:That's not me choosing it.
Speaker:And so if I always feel like if at the end of the day, for whatever reason in
Speaker:your brain, you think it's important to serve her in this way, what We don't even
Speaker:have to go that far, but whatever it is, and if we're gonna do that anyway, right?
Speaker:Um, Then we're gonna, we can work backwards from there
Speaker:and find the storyline from here to there that serves us.
Speaker:They're not gonna help you develop that storyline.
Speaker:They're not even aware, as you probably, you have already mentioned with the
Speaker:emotional issues, that it's important to develop things that work for you, that,
Speaker:that accommodating you and instead of her, um, and those boundaries are really key.
Speaker:I feel like those are the, the railroad tracks, right?
Speaker:For how you're gonna get through this.
Speaker:Um, And to observe them and to love her, no matter her reaction to your boundaries.
Speaker:And I love that concept that, um, we don't serve somebody to make them not mad at us.
Speaker:Like the evolution to me emotionally is, um, I'm gonna show up with my
Speaker:boundaries in my authentic way, and I will love you however you
Speaker:react to the boundaries that I set.
Speaker:And that, to me is durable.
Speaker:Because then I'm being who I can be and then they're being who,
Speaker:exactly who they're gonna be.
Speaker:Cuz you can't say, oh, I hope she doesn't get mad if I tell her
Speaker:I can't pick her up on Friday.
Speaker:And I'm gonna get mad if she gets mad because I say like, all of that would
Speaker:be, I can't pick you up on Friday.
Speaker:And then if there's some put, you know, blowback for that, some nasty text or
Speaker:phone call or whatever that, that's the best she can do with the, the emotional.
Speaker:Skillset that she has, the best she can do is call you and tell you
Speaker:something mean and hang up the phone.
Speaker:Um, but then that leaves you showing up for her because of you and
Speaker:because of how it makes you feel.
Speaker:So I'm getting a little bit too often into philosophizing, but um, that's how I feel
Speaker:like that's one of the reasons I have this podcast is I want us to really examine.
Speaker:And where these thoughts are coming from, how, if, you know,
Speaker:how we can serve ourselves in the middle of serving somebody else.
Speaker:Um, so with that said, any parting thoughts?
Speaker:I'm so excited that we got to talk today.
Speaker:Yeah, no, that's great.
Speaker:I, I feel like it's been kind of like a coaching session for
Speaker:me, so thank you for your Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, yeah, it's helpful to, it's definitely helpful to
Speaker:reframe your thoughts about.
Speaker:Your a situ any about a lot of situations, especially kind of painful situations.
Speaker:And I know that my brain has been kind of used to going down that route
Speaker:like, oh, it's been 10 or plus years that she's saying, complaining about
Speaker:nobody being there and she's all alone.
Speaker:And yeah, but just to move past that and say like, um, yeah, I'm not
Speaker:moving there because she wants me to, or because my husband wants me to.
Speaker:But because I wanna move there, which is true, there's a part of me
Speaker:at least that wants to move there.
Speaker:So do y'all have a timeframe for moving?
Speaker:Possibly this year.
Speaker:Depends on if we get a house there.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:So I'm gonna put in our class.
Speaker:We could do a part two in 2024.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Because one of the things that I see happen is the complaint is you're
Speaker:not, you know, moving close to her.
Speaker:And ironically, what, what often happens?
Speaker:Is that the complaint should pivots just a little bit.
Speaker:You're here now, you're not doing enough and you're here.
Speaker:So the proximity, the, the geographic proximity.
Speaker:When you're dealing with an emotionally immature adult, it is always the lack that
Speaker:it's not enough, that you're not enough, that there's not enough money, there's
Speaker:not enough things, there's not enough.
Speaker:And so the entire persona is that people are, that it's not enough.
Speaker:And it would be really a fallacy to believe, it's almost like, you know,
Speaker:oh, we'll solve this one thing and then the not enough part will go away.
Speaker:But that's, that is the core generator of thoughts and feelings for an adult like
Speaker:that, that it will still not be enough.
Speaker:And so going into it, knowing I could move closer, but the next not enough,
Speaker:and I'm not predicting this for you.
Speaker:I'm just, I've seen this happen.
Speaker:Is now that you are here, oh my gosh, you're here in the same city with me.
Speaker:You're really not doing enough.
Speaker:And so the not enough shifts and we think, oh, all I have to do is move closer and
Speaker:then the, and then that will be enough.
Speaker:And of course, that's never, never, never, never how it works.
Speaker:And I say that only out of compassion for your future self.
Speaker:I hope that does not happen to you, but the way that her brain
Speaker:thinks will still be the same.
Speaker:And it will be that there's not enough presence, there's not enough
Speaker:attention, there's not enough support, adoration, respect, whatever it is
Speaker:for her, that, that, that there are holes at the bottom of the cup and
Speaker:you're plugging one hole maybe, and then there's all these other holes,
Speaker:and the cup still has the holes in it.
Speaker:And so I just don't want you to lose yourself in the middle
Speaker:of trying to change your life thinking that this will be enough.
Speaker:Because there is no expectation in that mindset that that will be enough.
Speaker:It will just be less of that exact complaint.
Speaker:But as you've probably seen with this type of parent, then it, it just, you
Speaker:know, you're not good enough at school.
Speaker:Okay, well, good or gonna college, now you're down to the best college.
Speaker:Well, that's not good enough and you should have made a 4.0 and, and, and it's
Speaker:almost like this really com competitive lack of, you know, not enough things.
Speaker:So, Um, I don't wanna end it in a sad note like that, but if you, if you're going to
Speaker:move anyway, um, I'd like to eventually invite you back and have the second
Speaker:conversation of how it's going for you.
Speaker:And maybe we can learn from you of how are you navigating that?
Speaker:And I've even seen adult children move back to their parent and then
Speaker:actually end up becoming estranged, even living in the same city because
Speaker:of this exact problem, which is, I thought this was gonna be enough.
Speaker:Well, of course it's not.
Speaker:And then the resentment of having moved their life, their career,
Speaker:whatever, is so strong that the, the relationship is, is way different
Speaker:than I guess they had anticipated.
Speaker:So, um, anyway, that said, I think California's gorgeous.
Speaker:I'm excited you get to go there.
Speaker:The weather's amazing.
Speaker:Um, thank you for trusting me to come on and talk about this.
Speaker:I think it's gonna help a lot of people and I just
Speaker:appreciate you being here today.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Thank you so much, Rebecca, for having me and for all your insights.
Speaker:Yeah, I'll definitely have to, I mean, with your experience
Speaker:knowing about parents.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'll definitely have to take into consideration that
Speaker:there's gonna be something else that this is Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:This is gonna be the end, the end of the story for, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, I hope you have a good end to this story, um, but
Speaker:we will be checking back in.
Speaker:Sounds great.
