Solo Podcast: Reasonable Risk

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Hello everyone.

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So my name is Rebecca Tapia.

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I know many of you have not met me before, and I am the host of the.

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Podcast, real conversations about aging parents.

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I've been watching the analytics about the podcast in the background,

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and it's definitely been growing.

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Thank you so much for sharing this, and if you find anybody else that might

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benefit from these topics or these conversations, please share it with them.

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And if you really do find some value, please go and leave a review.

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Written reviews are the best to help make sure that the.

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Podcast is promoted to other people who might benefit from it.

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So thank you from the bottom of my heart for being an early

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supporter of this project.

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It, it means more to me than you could know, so I know you've had

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a lot of conversations thus far.

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This is now our 10th episode, which is super exciting, and this is

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gonna be a solo podcast, so I'll be doing more of these in the future.

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But we will never stop interviewing, interviewing interviewing interesting

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people and getting their stories.

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We've got some really good ones coming down the pike here soon.

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So today we're gonna talk about reasonable risk.

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And I, I know this isn't necessarily a familiar term to most of you, it

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wasn't to me until about a year ago.

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And so the story is that we, we took our daughter.

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To a summer camp last year.

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And like any 11 year old girl when she got back from a two week summer

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camp that was her first experience of that kind in a long time.

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It did take probably weeks, maybe months to get it all out of her.

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Like what ended up, what did she learn about, what were her friends like?

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What were the experiences like?

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And I remember very distinctly kind of probing her you know, you can only

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go so far sometimes with, with kids.

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And then I went back and asked again at some point, and we were

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turning the corner just about a half a mile here from my house.

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And I said, what did you guys do there?

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Just like learned to make friendship bracelets and s'mores.

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I mean, the pictures I saw looked like campfires.

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And she took a deep breath and she looked at me and she said, I.

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Learned how to take reasonable risk, and you could have hit me with a two by four.

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That's way better than learning friendship bracelets.

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Nothing against friendship bracelets, but if there was a cart as a parent and

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I could take skill, skill sets and life lessons and move them into the cart and

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purchase them, one of them would be.

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Teach my children how to take reasonable risk.

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And I asked her, and I said, what do you, what do you mean by that?

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What do you think reasonable risk is?

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And she said, well, when I'm trying to weigh out whether or not I should

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do something, then I think about the upsides and the downsides.

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And I think to myself, is this a reasonable risk?

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And I said, well, could you give me an example?

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And she said, yeah, there was this over in the lake where they have

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a lake near their summer camp.

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There's two platforms and then there's a rope in between them.

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And you can with safety measures in place and with somebody there go and

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hang on with, sounded like a monkey bar.

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Prove that you can hang on the monkey bar for so long and then go and try to swing

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on the rope between the two platforms.

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And she said, I, I thought to myself, well, the potential upside of this is

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I can make it to the other platform.

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I could be successful, I would feel really great if I did that,

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everybody would be happy for me.

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And the potential downside is that I would slip off the rope and fall

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into the water below and then have to swim my way over to the corner and

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you know, kind of deal with myself.

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And she said she carefully thought through this and said, well, I really, really like

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the idea that I can get to the platform, to the other platform successfully.

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And so I was decided to go up and you know, AP approach the person and like,

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let me get on the rope and get across.

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And I'm ply asking her this story, of course has already

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happened many weeks ago.

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And I said, what happened?

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And she said, yeah, I, I just fell in the water almost immediately.

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And I said, okay, how did you feel about that?

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And she said, well, I told myself it was a reasonable risk to take.

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Knowing that I could have gotten to the other side, but you know,

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worst case scenario fell and you know, everything's okay.

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And I thought a lot about that because we actually just took her back to

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that same camp this past weekend.

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And my husband and I were talking on the way home how mature

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of a concept that is and how.

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We're, how do we use that terminology in our lives when

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we're talking to our children?

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And what I'm gonna focus on today is how this concept applies to our

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mental drama about our aging parents.

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And one thing that strikes me that I know both living with somebody

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nearly 90 years old at this point.

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And then professionally working with so many people in the the older age

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group, the idea of what a reasonable risk is will change over time and

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the calculations are different.

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So if you're a math person, all the inputs and variables change over time.

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The coefficients change.

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What's more important to you?

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What are you summing for?

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And so if I am in my forties and I'm thinking I'm gonna live to my eighties,

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Then when I'm calculating reasonable risk of any activity, I'm factoring

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in if there was an adverse outcome.

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So if I became disabled or injured, then I will have to live that

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way, perhaps another 40 years.

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But if I'm 78 years old and one of the potential outcomes is that

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I have some physical demise as a result of this activity, maybe

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I think differently about it.

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The other side of reasonable risk that changes.

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When from, from say middle age up into your senior years is that

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we have to make sure that we're thinking about this in total.

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And so we are not thinking about risk reduction down simply to physical safety.

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Not that that's not important, but there is a large component of quality

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of life, an agency later in life that will figure in greatly into

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is this a reasonable risk or not?

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Meaning they don't have as many years of experiences left as say

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somebody in their forties or fifties.

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And perhaps that changes the math and that changes the calculation of what

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they're going to decide to do or not to.

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So for example, some major areas would be compliance medications, compliance

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with doctor's recommendations.

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So, For instance, my grandmother stopped getting mammograms some

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time ago because it was a very uncomfortable experience for her.

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She's a very private person.

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She didn't enjoy going to the doctor to have that done, and she

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announced to me, this would've been probably five or six years ago.

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I don't care if I get breast cancer, I just don't wanna do mammograms anymore,

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and I'll just deal with it if it happens.

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And that is an example of her doing a risk calculation and making a decision

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for herself and her body and her health and what she's willing or not

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willing to do as part of her agency to make those types of decisions.

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But we have to remember that there is a potential for conflict here.

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And so a lot of the drama I see about aging parents, Is the adult

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child in the picture, which is me and you, us talking here today.

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That's the main audience we have for this conversation.

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Looking at the reasonable risk calculation of a significant

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elder and disagreeing with it.

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And so it could be, Hey, I don't think you should go up and down the stairs.

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I don't think that's a safe thing to do.

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Right.

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And they think to themselves, well, I enjoy going up and down the stairs or

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if you go back to say the podcast with Sally, she talks about her mother wanting

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to go down into the basement to balance her checkbook, that there is something

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that she gets out of going up and down the stairs or being alone in the basement.

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Some sort of break, something going on there and she does this calculation

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and says, yeah, I could fall down the stairs, but I'm deciding to do that.

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And.

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I'll deal with the consequences, right?

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So where the drama comes in is when people are hitched together.

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So we would say that, you know, my wagon is hitched to you super old term, but

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like this idea that, you know, you can have as a risk falling down the stairs.

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But what we think they're risking along with that is, say, a month or two of

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our time, should they find themselves in the hospital in a rehab situation.

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So, Or needing additional care.

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So if I'm somebody that's sitting here looking at a potential promotion and that

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person is walking up and down the stairs and, and I don't perceive this as safe,

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then they're doing it maybe for their quality of life outta their decisions.

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But you're also thinking, you know, right behind that is a potential

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future obligation for my time, resources, money, attention, something.

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So it's usually one of those buckets there, right?

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So part of their reasonable risk calculation now has us tied into

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it with the assumption that we are going to provide some care or

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assistance or otherwise support should something bad happen.

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And so a lot of the conflict comes from those risk calculations

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and for the adult child.

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To use mechanisms to try to control the decision making as far as what's

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what, what the risk is, and then more than that even to control the behavior.

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And oftentimes what this looks like is it's beyond usually a simple conversation.

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So if the, a simple conversation would be, Hey mom, I noticed this rug doesn't have.

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One of those anti-slip things underneath it.

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Do you mind if I go to the store and purchase it and, and put it

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underneath the rug so you don't slip?

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That's probably not a IC drawn out conversation.

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Right.

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But Hey mom, I.

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I think you should stop driving is probably one of the most

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difficult conversations you sh you could possibly have.

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And so the idea here is that there is friction between the reasonable risk

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that, that I might think they should take because of what's risk is involved for me.

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Right?

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And then some friction of them trying to retain.

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Their own agency and autonomy, and that's where we see a lot of this come up.

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So the big buckets that I see this fall into, like I said, the, the

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medication compliance or the medical compliance, physical activities.

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So should somebody be stairs is a big one.

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Sometimes one of 'em, I, I've, I've even heard somebody upset about

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their mom taking a bath and having difficulty getting in and out of the

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bath and that they sh she shouldn't be taking baths anymore because she

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could fall and have a head injury.

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And I think another way that I'd like to, to propose that we think about

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it and this is a big deal for me as somebody who's a professional in the

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brain injury and trauma rehab world, is we have to first be really honest.

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That we cannot mitigate risk for anything down to 0% in these scenarios.

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And so if we look at probably the number one risk mitigation strategy

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focus for older adults is to not fall.

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And so the number one cause of head injuries and older adults is falls.

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And then a major cause of hospitalization and disability in older adults is falls.

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And so if I was just looking at.

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Reasonable risk related to falls, then I would tell Nana, my grandmother,

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well then just don't get outta bed every day because her going horizontal,

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sleeping to vertical, standing up and getting outta bed is the highest

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risk of fall, is just being vertical.

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If she was horizontal all day, right, unless she just rolled out of bed

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on purpose, she would never fall.

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And so the two most common places to fall are gonna be her

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standing up to get outta bed.

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And the second, or an additional, probably this is the most common place,

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is actually gonna be falling in the bathroom, taking a shower, getting up

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from, from the toilet, that type of thing.

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And so if I was just focused on risk mitigation for falls, then somebody

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would stay horizontal all the time.

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And if they stayed horizontal all the time, I.

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Then they would have respiratory problems because all that junk in your lungs, you

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know, sits on the back of your lungs then.

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And then they would have pressure sores, which are also can be

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very deadly for older people.

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And then she would have UTIs because she wasn't getting up and

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going to the bathroom as much.

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And UTIs can kill people too.

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And so then I could hop over and say, okay, well let's just, you know, mitigate

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the risk of UTIs and make sure you drink this much every day and test every day.

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Let's mitigate the risk of bedsores and make sure you're

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outta bed as much as possible.

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But then I increase the risk for falls.

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And what, where I, where, what I'm talking about is to be realistic

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about everybody having a constant negotiation in their life between

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reasonable risk and daily activities.

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And for a adult, say anywhere from 25 to 75, the highest risk activity

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they have on pretty much any given day unless they're intoxicated.

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It, well, specifically they're intoxicated, but even for non

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intoxicated people is physically being in a car or a vehicle and traveling.

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So we as humans are soft sheed, right?

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We're like masses of, you know, not of highly vulnerable, you know, tissues.

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And we place ourselves inside a hard shell, which is a car.

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Unless you're crazy enough to be on a motorcycle, which is a whole other

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podcast, but you put yourself inside a hard shell and then you run that

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hard, shell say 70 miles an hour down a highway with debris and other drivers,

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et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

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So we getting out of bed in the morning or taking a reasonable risk

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and then getting in our vehicle or taking a reasonable risk that we assess

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and what we assess to be reasonable changes throughout our lifetime.

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And you.

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If, if you're a parent, you know, you spend a lot of time just

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explaining to kids why some risks are worth it, why some are not.

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How, you know, how did you come to this conclusion?

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What did you actually think that that got you this far?

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And so the way I think about it is if you've evolved a lot and say the last

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10 to 20 years what you're willing to risk, and, and in some areas

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your risk tolerance may go higher.

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And so you may be taking more risk and there are other areas of life

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where your risk tolerance may be lowering and you can see it over time.

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It actually just kind of undulates in many areas and

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as it undulates, right?

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I mean, it's gonna continue to undulate as somebody gets older.

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And so, one of the, the ways I think about it or the ways I like to approach it, Is

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just to be as honest and transparent as possible, and to be honest with myself.

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And so if I say Nana, I don't want you to shower by yourself, right?

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And I'm saying that because I don't want her to fall.

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Then what I'm also saying then, then I to have a complete conversation.

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Then we have a whole other conversation about privacy and safety.

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And at her age, she may come and say, you know, I'm willing to take the risk that

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I fall and maybe you're not home, and maybe nobody finds me and maybe I die,

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but I still wanna take a shower by myself.

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Thank you.

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Now, we've never had this conversation specifically, we had a lot of

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similar conversations, but this would be an example of that's

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exactly what I would expect her to say and why I haven't asked her yet.

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And she hasn't demonstrated a lot of safety issues with the bathroom.

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But the idea is that when I think about it, there's a surface thought

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that feels super self-righteous and kind of like perfect daughter

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ish, which is, you know, I'm just super concerned about your safety.

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And you'll hear this when people talk about it.

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They'll say, I don't want mom and you know, to go up and down the stairs

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because I'm concerned about her safety.

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And I'm not saying that's not true and that's not an initial

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thought that your brain has.

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But as we'll talk about both in my podcast and any other content that I put

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out there, I love complete sentences.

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I love to look at secondary and tertiary layers of that thought because I actually

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think that's where the real work is.

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And if we just stopped at that and said, oh, look at this daughter,

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she's just super concerned about.

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Somebody's safety going up and down the stairs.

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Well, how concerned are you also, in whatever scenario to make this calculation

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about their quality of life and where does that figure in and how concerned are you

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also about their autonomy and their agency and if you are so into this, and I've

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been there, okay, that you're going to employ pressure, coercion, and harassment.

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To get somebody to acquiesce to your reasonable risk calculation and

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say, you really shouldn't do this.

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You know?

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Right.

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Then you know that you're not in a good space.

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Right.

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That's not good for your relationship.

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It's not good for your stress management either, but it feels very righteous.

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It feels like you're fighting for somebody and really, really, if we're

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gonna go another layer or two underneath that, what's actually happening?

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The second, right underneath that is actually a very ego driven

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thought, which is, I don't have time for a crisis right now.

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Right?

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If the shit hit the fan and there is an accident or a hospitalization, right?

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I've got this going on.

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I've got kids that are really involved in things and I've got

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a career that I'm managing and I don't have that much sick time or

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whatever it is going on that right.

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It is a very sneaky thought that doesn't declare itself, but can

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drive a lot of the drama around it.

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And so when you're talking about this topic and you get really expressive

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about it, and you're, excuse me,

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and you're really, really into it, the next question would be, do you know why?

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Is it bothering you so much?

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So, so you think they're making a bad decision?

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Have they ever made any other bad decisions in a lifetime?

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Have you.

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If we have the bad decision police, there'd be like unlimited number

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of police in the world, right?

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So, the idea would be that the second layer there really is, you

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know, it'd be super inconvenient if something really bad happened.

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And when I say that out loud, I sound like a total asshole.

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But the issue is, I, it's true.

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I can both these, both of these things can be true.

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I love you and I'm really concerned about your safety.

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And the second thing is, since I'm your medical power of attorney, it would

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be the next of kin in this situation and be nearly required to go to the

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hospital and make decisions for you.

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You know, like, it's kind of like bad timing.

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So how do we risk mitigate this?

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And part of this is just having that conversation, right?

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And then I think there's a third layer, and I always love the third layer because

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it's the, the most fascinating to me.

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And in this particular topic, I think the third layer, at least for me is

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the guilt or resentment that I'm going to feel if and when this happens?

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And that is a very negative emotion for me.

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That's a very activating emotion for me.

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And so the idea is, well, I told you not to.

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I told you not to.

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I told you not to, and then you did it anyway and then this happened and

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I'm gonna be stuck in my brain with simultaneously feeling sorry for you.

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Right, and then feeling like a dipshit for also being really

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angry with you at the same time.

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And I say this not just as a personal experience, I'm sorry you're getting

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to know me, but I'm gonna be really, really real with you guys, right?

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I see this play out perpetually in the world of rehab because in the

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rehab world, we see pretty much every catastrophic incident you can think of.

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And there's this, in some cases, Not only is there the grief about what's

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happening to the person or the stress of the hospitalization and the rehab

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stay, then there's also this sort of secondary, well, you know, I told

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them X, Y, Z, and they did it anyway.

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And that's a really, really hard thing to reconcile.

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And so all of these things can form like a thought tornado.

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That make me want to control the way another person behaves.

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And that to me is my big red flag.

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And I think, okay, well one, if I was really successful at doing

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this, then, you know, I would have a whole different career.

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But, but two, it doesn't feel good.

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And all I can know that I have are my own limits, my own boundaries

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that I have the best relationship I can have and say with sincerity.

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I really hope you're safe.

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You know, here's how I think of this.

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This is what could happen if this happened and have a discussion if appropriate,

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and then move on with my life.

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I can't sit there and beat somebody up over it all the time.

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If I think they should be in an assisted living, and I think this

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over and over and over again, they're staying in their home, right?

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What are, what am I supposed to do?

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Go and kidnap them and admit them to an assisted living.

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You know, an assisted living will not admit somebody who they feel like is

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going to leave or be a risk of leaving.

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That's not a good investment for them.

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And so they need the buy-in of primarily their, their client, which

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is going to be the, the significant elder, and then whomever else is,

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is sort of part of their care.

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Right.

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And speaking of aging in place, this is a massive topic, is the calculation of

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reasonable risks with aging in place.

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And so, How long somebody stays in their own home before they either

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get help in the home or decide to move it into assisted living, right.

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I've been right there at that intersection, hundreds and hundreds and

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hundreds of times of how people make this complex decision, and there is not a one

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size fits all for it, but for an adult who retains capacity and their ability

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to make their own decisions and control their life, And they can understand the

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risks and benefits of any given setting.

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Right?

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And they make that decision for themselves, right?

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That they're, that's up to them.

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As painful as that can be, and as challenging as that can be, and if

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that's the course that they take, and that's a hard course to take, right?

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Then you do the best that you can as well and manage your mind at that point.

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That's what I'm so big about with mindset, right?

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Which I.

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If you're not gonna control what they're doing, which we've talked

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about, can be fe futile anyway.

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And then next to that, the idea is gonna be, you know, if I can't

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control you, I can control myself and I can control my mindset and support

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you and find ways to support you and find ways to think about this.

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And, and what, what are the benefits of this?

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And this happens a lot.

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So we have an older adult that starts falling at home and

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then we solve for the safest.

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Fall averse setting, and then it becomes basically a place

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with very little furniture.

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It doesn't, it becomes clinicalize, it becomes institutionalized.

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And you walk in and it's like, oh, great.

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This is like a box with a bed and a walker and a call light.

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And now they can't fall.

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They still do.

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And so even in settings like even hospital settings, you know, patients

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still fall even sometimes when there's somebody paid by the hour to sit

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next to that person to try to make sure they don't fall short of shoving

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them back into bed, it still happens.

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And so the idea is you're not gonna risk mitigate falls.

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Down to zero in-home or in assisted living.

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It theoretically should be less in those types of settings, but

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always have a complete conversation because we're complete human beings

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with a lot of other considerations.

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And there may be an older adult that you're dealing with who's

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consideration of simply extending life for the maximum amount possible.

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May not be how they're thinking.

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And I can tell you for sure, my dad doesn't think that way.

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If you go back to the podcast with my dad, he doesn't think that way at all.

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Right, so he's a person on blood thinners who rides horses, and so that

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is not a reasonable risk I would take as a head injury specialist who's seen

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people get thrown off of horses on blood thinners and have a bad outcome.

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But I sit in this space of knowing that that is a risk he is willing to

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take, and it brings some joy to him.

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It brings some amount of accomplishment, agency joy.

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Right.

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And so I have to reconcile that and I, and, and that is just part of

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what this negotiation is going to be.

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Or you can go back to the podcast with Jaylynn and she talks about her mom being

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hyper-focused on extending her life.

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So everything was about solving these medical problems and

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just simply living longer.

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And so maybe with her, maybe her reasonable risk profile looks different.

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Right.

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And so she had a bunch of procedures to try to extend her life.

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And if you listen to the podcast, I mean, sometimes those

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end up working against you.

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And as a physician, we're very comfortable with reasonable risk.

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Anytime we do any, even a minor procedure, we, you know, take a, a a consent

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paper that says you could get some inflammation or all the way up into death.

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And you have people sign it because you don't know exactly what's gonna happen.

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And you can say, well, it's very low risk.

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Right?

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But you go in and, and have it done anyway.

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Anytime if anybody has ever been under anesthesia or gone

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to have a surgery, right?

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There's risk just from the anesthesia alone.

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And I think about this because it, I, I just have this weird kind of, Headspace,

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when I think about elective surgeries, so like cosmetic surgeries and so forth that

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aren't meant to preserve or extend life, but to change aesthetically, I think to

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myself, there are people out there who are signing consents for general anesthesia.

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So intubation, the whole nine yards and general anesthesia alone has a

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non-zero risk of adverse outcomes or, or complications, but they're

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looking at it and saying whatever cosmetic procedure they have.

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It's a reasonable risk to them.

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So they've done some risk assessment and we are okay with that, obviously.

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I mean, it's totally illegal and common to do that.

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And so when, when you're having conflict with a significant elder over judgment

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that they're making or, or a choice that they're making, I, I would encourage

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you to get still and realize that there is a mismatch or a gap between

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reasonable risk assessments on other side.

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The way I think about it is there's a bright red line.

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If they're taking a risk, that's, that's potentially going to hurt somebody else.

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And so if they're driving and they shouldn't be driving because they have

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a history of vision problems or their memory or they're, they're making se

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impaired when they're driving, they're having increased number of accidents or

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tickets, those types of things, right?

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And those laws do vary by state.

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How and if you can report other people you feel like are unsafe to

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drive, but to me, if they're making decisions that put anybody else in

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harm's way, there really isn't this reasonable risk gap calculation.

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Right.

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So then the, that goes back to just sort of laws and ethics about how you

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help protect the public health and protect people around that person.

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And we do have a, a lot of those types of considerations in a medical

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setting when a patient's really agitated and couldn't danger.

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Staff or other patients, and, and that kind of puts us in a different mode.

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But short of that being the case if the risk is to themselves and they

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are able to make those decisions to the extent possible, honoring those

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decisions and, and letting them right, make those decisions is an important

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thing to protect their agency and their quality of life and their autonomy later.

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So, And I think about this even in the language that we, we use.

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And so I hear people say, well, you know, I'd feel really guilty if X, y, Z happened

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because I let them stay in their home or because I let them do this activity.

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And the idea is that that's not even real language.

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I mean, you didn't let somebody do something.

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So, we'll use a synonym to, to permit, and I'm a linguist at heart, and so to permit.

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Means per means through admit means send.

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So to send through as if somebody's coming to your gate and you're doing

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some assessment and you say, okay, well you can go through so I will

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permit you or send you through, you know, to the, to the choice that you've

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made so you can take this activity.

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And so putting myself in the position of permitting or otherwise obstructing

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somebody from doing something that's within their rights to do is never

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a good place to be with you or.

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Outsourcing your emotional experience to somebody else's decision making?

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I am not a pro at this yet.

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I still feel like I struggle with this.

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Even as a physician, we see people make decisions or risk tradeoffs that you

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would think maybe I would make that one.

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It can be difficult, but when you go back to even how physicians

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are trained, so first do no harm.

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Right.

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So I'm not going to go over to their house and harass them until they make

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a decision that I'm happy with, right?

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Because regret works both ways, and I've seen it work both ways so many times.

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So there's this idea that there's some adverse event and somebody's like, oh, I

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told them they shouldn't have done that.

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But then I've also seen people pass in settings or situations

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or have things happen.

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Where there's some regret that that person was too constrained or too

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restricted or too guilted into low activity levels that don't make any sense.

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And I'll give you just one more example.

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So, some of the assisted living type settings or nursing facility type

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settings won't permit any alcohol on the premises, which makes sense, right?

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Because you don't want a bunch of people walking around inebriated.

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But there are some people whose life tradition.

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Would be, say, drinking a beer and watching a, a football game

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on a weekend or something, or drinking some wine at night.

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And maybe that's how they've lived so dang long by drinking the wine.

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And when you're looking at selecting facilities and having that as a question,

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you know, what is your policy about this?

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Because I'm acknowledging that this is an important part of their life.

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And I'm not, I'm not saying this for like patients that struggle

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with alcoholism or things like that.

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I'm talking specifically about social quality of life type issues,

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and then asking, you know, what is what is, how do you approach this?

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What's your policy about this?

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And then, and then again, that's a holistic approach that's gonna think of

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them as a whole human being, not again, a soft shelf thing that needs to not find

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themselves on the ground, which is true.

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We don't want anybody to find themselves in the ground.

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But as I've said, you have to be vertical to be healthy.

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Right.

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And there's just so many things in this world, even for non an elderly people

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that we just have to be aware of.

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And so taking reasonable measures to say, you know, fall proof the house,

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house as much as possible, or to, you know, prevent as reasonably as

Speaker: 00:32:25

you can, bad things from happening.

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So if they're still driving, that they have a car that's in good shape,

Speaker: 00:32:30

that they have tires that are Good.

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They have breaks that are good just like anything else, right?

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Those are where you really get into starting then to blend

Speaker: 00:32:39

sort of those risk calculations.

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So I know that's a lot of information.

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I am really excited to see my daughter come back here in about two weeks and

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to learn more about what she's, if they're still talking about reasonable

Speaker: 00:32:51

risk or how she's thought about this I would encourage you to, to think about

Speaker: 00:32:54

things in those terms and just know.

Speaker: 00:32:57

That there's a lot of variability about how people calculate that.

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And the way that your significant elder may calculate it may have nothing to do

Speaker: 00:33:04

with you, may not be a slight, it may not be it might be an extremely personal

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calculation as to how they arrived there.

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If you have curiosity about it or willing sharing, you can talk to them about it.

Speaker: 00:33:15

And then also if you wanna share how you, how you think this might affect you,

Speaker: 00:33:19

if you think that might be helpful in the conversation, that's an option too.

Speaker: 00:33:22

So, well thank you for listening to that.

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I will tell you, I have been working for the past six months on

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building a course on this topic.

Speaker: 00:33:30

Not specifically reasonable risk, but the entire topic of mindset when it

Speaker: 00:33:34

comes to approaching your mindset about your aging parent or significant elders.

Speaker: 00:33:40

That course is going to go live on July 20th.

Speaker: 00:33:43

If you are interested in it, please go over to rebecca tapia

Speaker: 00:33:47

md.com, join the interest list.

Speaker: 00:33:50

I'll make sure you get some information.

Speaker: 00:33:52

I'll make sure that you're access to this course immediately.

Speaker: 00:33:55

On the 20th.

Speaker: 00:33:56

I think it's gonna be an excellent conversation for us to have in

Speaker: 00:34:01

between you and I through this course building on a workbook.

Speaker: 00:34:05

I am really, really excited to share it with you.

Speaker: 00:34:07

I've been working really, really hard on it.

Speaker: 00:34:09

And I just, I, I think it's gonna be a, a very, very interesting course edit.

Speaker: 00:34:22

So, coming up on July 20th, I'm gonna release the course I've

Speaker: 00:34:26

been working on for the better part of the past year or so.

Speaker: 00:34:29

It's called Un Sandwiched, five Steps to Manage Your Mental

Speaker: 00:34:32

Drama About Aging Parents.

Speaker: 00:34:34

I say un sandwiched because I'm referring to the sandwich generation where people

Speaker: 00:34:38

feel pulled between their careers and their own kids and their aging parents.

Speaker: 00:34:42

And so working on un sandwiching that part of the brain.

Speaker: 00:34:46

So that'll be available on July 20th.

Speaker: 00:34:50

If you'd like to go over to rebecca toka md.com or hit the

Speaker: 00:34:54

link in the show notes here.

Speaker: 00:34:56

I can tell you more about it.

Speaker: 00:34:57

If you again, if you have anybody who would benefit from these kinds

Speaker: 00:35:00

of conversations, please, please share the podcast with them.

Speaker: 00:35:04

I'd be greatly appreciative of that.

Speaker: 00:35:06

Thank you so much.